Author Topic: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style  (Read 5110 times)

MSchwiebert

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"Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« on: November 10, 2011, 01:08:11 PM »
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/supplier_spotlight/news/Updates-from-Alstom-Bombardier-Duos-Technologies-RMI-and-GrahamWhite--28804

3rd paragraph referencing video camera system installation along a rail corridor to prepare for the upcoming Superbowl.

indyspy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 01:16:21 PM »
Ahh crap..... I hope they are not putting this crap over near CP-IU.

Though... perhaps with this camera system, they won't need to stop trains moving during the superbowl.

Still, I keep getting the urge to take a month long vacation during Febuary.

Last thing I want is to be hassled because someone can see me with a damn camera while I am watching trains from the north side of the barriers in the parking lot off Alabama and Maryland.
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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 03:16:36 PM »
Ahh crap..... I hope they are not putting this crap over near CP-IU.

Though... perhaps with this camera system, they won't need to stop trains moving during the superbowl.

Still, I keep getting the urge to take a month long vacation during Febuary.

Last thing I want is to be hassled because someone can see me with a damn camera while I am watching trains from the north side of the barriers in the parking lot off Alabama and Maryland.

What makes you think they are not watching you already?  ::)

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indyspy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 03:34:35 PM »
I know, damn Cameras are everywhere. Homeland security even coughed up some dough for one at the INRD SAT yard.
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ATAIndy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 03:35:38 PM »
$680,000 contract for said security system? I'm sure that will earn its money back. The best security system is the railfan!
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CSX_CO

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 04:44:17 PM »
$680,000 contract for said security system? I'm sure that will earn its money back. The best security system is the railfan!

Yeah, because those cameras will turn off when its dark, cloudy, crappy weather, or have something better to do.  If you all want to set up a 24/7 rail watch down there knock yourselves out.  Not that IU is a 'hot bed' for sabotage, but it saves 1 accident over its life span it has paid for itself monitarily, and in public image.

You'd be surprised how much of CSX's infrastructure is already monitored.  I've seen the monitoring center first hand in Jacksonville.  Pretty impressive.  Cameras pointed at 'key' locations on CSX (bridges, tunnels, etc), plus other items of importance.  Cameras can tell if something the size of a loaf of bread is 'out of place'.  Most of CSX's ROW in Washington DC is constantly monitored with motion detectors.  It senses motion, camera jumps to the location, and the operator needs to make a determination of 'threat' level.  Trespassers, MOW workers, etc.  Yes, big brother is watching you...

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Jim Norton

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 06:51:01 PM »
The true value of these systems will be determined by the amount of vandalism occuring .  Using the average graffiti laden freight train as a barometer for rail security illustrates little if any.  Our luck, these camaras are more "ammo" against the photographer to take the rap for the vandal.


ATAIndy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »
You'd be surprised how much of CSX's infrastructure is already monitored.  I've seen the monitoring center first hand in Jacksonville.  Pretty impressive.  Cameras pointed at 'key' locations on CSX (bridges, tunnels, etc), plus other items of importance.  Cameras can tell if something the size of a loaf of bread is 'out of place'.  Most of CSX's ROW in Washington DC is constantly monitored with motion detectors.  It senses motion, camera jumps to the location, and the operator needs to make a determination of 'threat' level.  Trespassers, MOW workers, etc.  Yes, big brother is watching you...

So is the main purpose of the surveillance system to monitor the infrastructure for defects, debris, and other problems? Or is it to watch for trespassers and vandals? Those are both two different things and I've never thought about it from a defect and debris standpoint before.
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CSX_CO

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 08:26:50 PM »
So is the main purpose of the surveillance system to monitor the infrastructure for defects, debris, and other problems? Or is it to watch for trespassers and vandals? Those are both two different things and I've never thought about it from a defect and debris standpoint before.

Yeah.  Both.  Vandals placing debris, being on the property, sabotage, etc.  Signal system *should* catch any track problems (broken rails, missing rails, etc).  Camera is to make sure people aren't messing with the track in a critical area.

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ATAIndy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 11:52:37 PM »
Yeah.  Both.  Vandals placing debris, being on the property, sabotage, etc.  Signal system *should* catch any track problems (broken rails, missing rails, etc).  Camera is to make sure people aren't messing with the track in a critical area.

Practice Safe CSX

I understand the monitoring track problems and vandals. Its just gets frustrating however because the people on the other end of the security camera can't always tell whose is trying to vandalize and who just wants a picture.
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csxdispatcher

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2011, 09:16:19 AM »
The true value of these systems will be determined by the amount of vandalism occuring .  Using the average graffiti laden freight train as a barometer for rail security illustrates little if any.

That would be the wrong barometer.  From every report I have seen, graffiti happens more at the industry, off railroad property.  This seems to hold true when you look at the lack of graffiti on cars that would be at high security industry's, such as coal and ethanol cars.

CSX_CO

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2011, 12:26:55 PM »
I understand the monitoring track problems and vandals. Its just gets frustrating however because the people on the other end of the security camera can't always tell whose is trying to vandalize and who just wants a picture.

If you aren't trespassing, then the camera isn't going to be seeing you now is it?

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indyspy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2011, 12:39:40 PM »
If you aren't trespassing, then the camera isn't going to be seeing you now is it?

Practice Safe CSX

Thats really debateable with that Parking Lot the way it is at IU

The parking spots are closer to the tracks then the signal relay cabinets for the 11,13,15 and 17 crossovers at CP-IU. Heck there is no fence and the car wheelstop bumpers are on the edge of the damn balast. Last thing I should have to put up with is a visit from a bull because I am parked there and leaning on the hood of my own car thats legaly parked in a parking spot I paid for!

I doubt anyone in the Virginia or Union station garages would be bothered, I doubt the cameras are going to be able to be aimed to point up at them.

I am actually hoping the Cameras will all be WEST of the Station shed.
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CIOR

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2011, 12:42:30 PM »
I'd guess they will be located at spots where people have quick and easy access to the railroad.  Or, the exact spot you just pointed out.  Or at least in the general area to see if something is going on. 

ATAIndy

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 12:58:32 PM »
If you aren't trespassing, then the camera isn't going to be seeing you now is it?

Practice Safe CSX

You can't always get "the shot" by standing on the sidewalk. I understand we have different opinions on this and that's fine.

In the end I guess I just get tired for getting chased away even though my intentions are good and trains are my hobby. I don't always blame the security guards, I realize they don't make the policies, they just enforce them. So my big beef is with the ones that set the rules.
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trainmaster53

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 01:23:09 PM »
I will add this. There is no Laws against taking Photographs in this Country. But there are those out there that seem to try to make it against the Law. They are the ones who need to know what the Laws are, before they try to enforce something that isn't Against the Law. Our Government has made it very clear that it is not against the Law to take Photographs, and They encourage it.

1976

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 10:38:46 PM »
You can't always get "the shot" by standing on the sidewalk. I understand we have different opinions on this and that's fine.

In the end I guess I just get tired for getting chased away even though my intentions are good and trains are my hobby. I don't always blame the security guards, I realize they don't make the policies, they just enforce them. So my big beef is with the ones that set the rules.
I agree, you can't always get the good stuff from public property, but just because you like trains and "mean no harm" doesn't make you entitled to trespass.  Am I guilty of doing it?  Absolutely.  But you can't get defensive and act like you're in the right if you are approached, and it's better to just leave if they tell you to.  You can't come play in my yard (private property) just because you like the type of grass in it, so why should you be able to play on tracks (private property) just because you like the type of machine that runs on it?  Play dumb, maybe, but taking the stance of having the right to do it, no.  Trespassing is illegal and you've got to be willing to take what they give you if you're "caught".  That's not an opinion.

Racecar52

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 09:22:24 AM »
If you aren't trespassing, then the camera isn't going to be seeing you now is it?

False.


I will add this. There is no Laws against taking Photographs in this Country. But there are those out there that seem to try to make it against the Law. They are the ones who need to know what the Laws are, before they try to enforce something that isn't Against the Law. Our Government has made it very clear that it is not against the Law to take Photographs, and They encourage it.

I know, you let someone catch a glimpse of a lens and they act like you're holding a gun to their head.  Some folks forget if its visible to the public eye, its visible to my camera too...
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CSX_CO

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2011, 10:16:43 AM »
False.

Oh, so you know how the system is set up do you?

Like I said, its set up to be triggered if someone steps onto the ROW.  If you aren't on the ROW, i.e. trespassing, then it won't pick you up.  Plain and simple.  Its no different then the experiment they had on the Indiana Turnpike for alerting motorists to deer near the highway.  The deer break the plain, and the lights go off.  Those deer can stand in the ditch, and the system isn't going to go off.  If you are where you should be, it won't go off.  You break the plain, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, and its going to alert someone.  From what I recall, it has the ability to play a message warning the person to step back off the ROW.  Keep pressing that boundry, and I'm sure you'll get a visit from a physical person.

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CIOR

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2011, 11:58:50 AM »
I believe the UP has that at Moffatt tunnel, if you get so far into the tunnel's restrict area, it senses you and sets off a verbal warning via speakers, if you do not heed that warning, you will see someone very shortly.

(now ya know why I don't like the city!)  But then again I'm not big on walking in trespassing to get a shot.  There are VERY few shots worth me risking jail or fines over.  Sorry.

TomB

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 12:34:03 PM »
It's another reason why I prefer to photograph rusty branch lines and abandoned tracks!

Caylorman

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 02:08:16 PM »
I've noticed one camera placed by CSX up here near Auburn, which is used to watch over a bridge crossing the tracks.  The bridge itself has signs placed on it by the "CSX Environmental Police" warning that the bridge is monitored due to people dumping onto the tracks from the bridge. 

The thing I find amusing is that (A) the camera only views the bridge, as the tracks are obstructed by the bridge and trees, and (B) there doesn't seem to be any type of coax or power cable going to the camera.

Of course, I'm also wondering if, while warning vandals, the railroad vandalized a bridge they don't own by attaching signs to it...

E.J.

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2011, 06:33:44 PM »
Oh, so you know how the system is set up do you?

No, but I'm afraid I wasn't referring to your system.
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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2011, 06:44:24 PM »
I've noticed one camera placed by CSX up here near Auburn, which is used to watch over a bridge crossing the tracks.  The bridge itself has signs placed on it by the "CSX Environmental Police" warning that the bridge is monitored due to people dumping onto the tracks from the bridge. 

The thing I find amusing is that (A) the camera only views the bridge, as the tracks are obstructed by the bridge and trees, and (B) there doesn't seem to be any type of coax or power cable going to the camera.

Of course, I'm also wondering if, while warning vandals, the railroad vandalized a bridge they don't own by attaching signs to it...

I believe I know the the bridge you are referring to out near the State Line.  Lots of kids out there placing stuff on the tracks, hanging out on the bridge, etc.  A few years ago, they went so far as to place a cinder block via a rope at cab level.  A friend of mine ended up hitting that thing at 50 mph, smashing out the cab window.  He suffered cuts when the windshield shattered.  So frankly, I'm glad they are monitoring the hooligans that hang out up there.  At that point it went beyond young people having fun.  Even if the camera is just a deterrent, with no power, and one is actually watching it.

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MSchwiebert

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2011, 12:33:47 PM »
More than a few odd/dangerous bits of "mischief"  out in that neck of the woods over the years unfortunately.  First year I lived in Ft. Wayne (1993) a kid threw a cinderblock from the CR 68 overpass into traffic on I-69 and it went through a windshield and the person into car bled to death at the Rest Stop just up the freeway before help could arrive.   A few years after that, people cut the guy wires on the NS Repeater Tower & the Transmission Tower for a TV station near St. Joe causing both to collapse.  So unfortunately actions like that out there don't surprise me at all.

I believe I know the the bridge you are referring to out near the State Line.  Lots of kids out there placing stuff on the tracks, hanging out on the bridge, etc.  A few years ago, they went so far as to place a cinder block via a rope at cab level.  A friend of mine ended up hitting that thing at 50 mph, smashing out the cab window.  He suffered cuts when the windshield shattered.  So frankly, I'm glad they are monitoring the hooligans that hang out up there.  At that point it went beyond young people having fun.  Even if the camera is just a deterrent, with no power, and one is actually watching it.

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Red P

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2011, 02:06:09 PM »
That would be the wrong barometer.  From every report I have seen, graffiti happens more at the industry, off railroad property.  This seems to hold true when you look at the lack of graffiti on cars that would be at high security industry's, such as coal and ethanol cars.

Industries are using cameras too

csxdispatcher

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2011, 03:01:56 PM »
Industries are using cameras too

Your point?

IndyHog

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2011, 03:44:16 PM »
The terrorists have succeeded.
Meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss......wait a minute, He's much worse

Racecar52

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2011, 12:36:45 AM »
The terrorists have succeeded.

^my point.
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1976

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2011, 12:52:35 AM »
Your point?
You said that using graffiti on cars is the wrong barometer, and most of it happens in the industry.  So to say that industries are using cameras too is a logical point.  I understood why he said that.

ScottFlood

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2011, 09:50:56 AM »
I don't think the cameras are a sign that the terrorists have succeeded.

I think we have a society with a growing number of people who were raised without respect for others, coupled with the arrival of powerful new technologies that make it easier to monitor places that need to be protected.

I'm not advocating a Big Brother world, but if a railroad wants to keep an eye on an area where vandalism is a problem, so they can protect their employees and equipment from harm, more power to them. And if that means I have to stand 20 feet farther back to take a photo, so be it.

Nick Norman

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2011, 10:17:16 AM »
I agree, if the railroad wants to protect their property more power to them. Hopefully they can distinguish who's friend and who's foe. Where I take photos I've seen many Sheriff Dept. cars dirve by. Most of them don't care. They know a camera is harmless. Most of them have actually smiled and waved as they pass by.

And this is exactly why I prefer a lonesome county road in the middle of nowhere to take photos. I'm not going to lie, I've walked across the tracks a few times. But it's not hurting anything if no one can see. I know someone on here is going to act like a Gestapo Officer over it, but so be it.

SemperVaporo

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2011, 11:37:38 AM »
I have video surveillance around my house.  I have the cameras aimed to view MY property as best as I can aim them.  They do also include partial views of my neighbor's property and the street in front of my house in the periphery of the views. I use a computer with motion detecting software (Vitamin D Video) to record the scenes if something moves in areas of the scenes that I defined in the program.  Actually, all the video is recorded, but only certain segments where motion was detected is kept longer than a couple of days, and that video is kept until the computer diskdrive is full, at which point only the oldest is deleted.
 
There are legalities involved in this and I have to be careful to not include portions of my neighbor's property that might be considered "private" in the scenes the cameras view (i.e.: I can't let my camera view in their windows such that one could tell what they are doing, even if I can stand on my property and see in the windows myself!).  But if my camera happens to catch, say my neighbor across the street beating his wife with a sledgehammer in his front yard, I would be remiss in my civic/moral duties to not report what it recorded.  However if he is merely chopping holes in HIS house then that is his business and I should stay out of it... But, what if he is a renter?  What if my video recording is of someone driving a car up over the neighbor's prize flowerbed and I can tell whose car it is?  I hope I never have to make those decisions!
 
I am reminded of the old joke about the old lady that called the police about a neighbor man walking around in the nude.  A police officer came to her house to investigate what was going on.  She said that from her bedroom she could see the man next door in his house completely nude.  The officer went to the bedroom and looked out the window and into the neighbor's house and could indeed see the neighbor but could only tell he was shirtless because he could only see him from the waist up.  He told the lady that due to the way the windows were situated he could not tell if the man was completely naked or not.  The woman became frantic and began to shout, "Well... Stand on the bed, stand on the bed!"
 
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INprinter

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2011, 01:11:03 PM »
I have video surveillance around my house.  I have the cameras aimed to view MY property as best as I can aim them.  They do also include partial views of my neighbor's property and the street in front of my house in the periphery of the views. I use a computer with motion detecting software (Vitamin D Video) to record the scenes if something moves in areas of the scenes that I defined in the program.  Actually, all the video is recorded, but only certain segments where motion was detected is kept longer than a couple of days, and that video is kept until the computer diskdrive is full, at which point only the oldest is deleted.
 
There are legalities involved in this and I have to be careful to not include portions of my neighbor's property that might be considered "private" in the scenes the cameras view (i.e.: I can't let my camera view in their windows such that one could tell what they are doing, even if I can stand on my property and see in the windows myself!).  But if my camera happens to catch, say my neighbor across the street beating his wife with a sledgehammer in his front yard, I would be remiss in my civic/moral duties to not report what it recorded.  However if he is merely chopping holes in HIS house then that is his business and I should stay out of it... But, what if he is a renter?  What if my video recording is of someone driving a car up over the neighbor's prize flowerbed and I can tell whose car it is?  I hope I never have to make those decisions!
 
I am reminded of the old joke about the old lady that called the police about a neighbor man walking around in the nude.  A police officer came to her house to investigate what was going on.  She said that from her bedroom she could see the man next door in his house completely nude.  The officer went to the bedroom and looked out the window and into the neighbor's house and could indeed see the neighbor but could only tell he was shirtless because he could only see him from the waist up.  He told the lady that due to the way the windows were situated he could not tell if the man was completely naked or not.  The woman became frantic and began to shout, "Well... Stand on the bed, stand on the bed!"
 


You generate more questions than answers.  ;D

INprinter
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csxdispatcher

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2011, 03:28:33 PM »
You said that using graffiti on cars is the wrong barometer, and most of it happens in the industry.  So to say that industries are using cameras too is a logical point.  I understood why he said that.

Not really.  Cameras at an industry would be aimed to protect the industry's assits, which for the most part a railroad car is not.  Next time you are out looking, take a look at cars that spend time in a industry that would have high security.  Coal cars, ethanol cars, coke cars, auto racks and intermodal equipment has far less graffiti than other types of cars. 

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Re: "Candid Camera" - Indianapolis Style
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2011, 03:01:24 PM »
On the other hand I've been hassled by private security guards for taking pictures from public sidewalks and streets of railroad equipment on their property.  I pointed out to one of them that I was standing on a public sidewalk and had every right to be there. 

They need to know their limits as well as railfans.

A railfan friend of mine practices the "four minute rule" where it will take a security guard about four minutes to arrive after noticing something or someone, so he always makes sure to take a quick picture then disappear quickly even if taking it from a public space like a road bridge going over a yard.  We do not trespass on private property, including railroad ROWs, yet have still been hassled.