Notre Dame Line Purchase?

[ambrose(Guest)]

I think that NS hand was forced by the city.The mayor said they were working with NS on the south side track relocation/removal and who knows maybe they even helped them money wise in return for the pullout.That was the only sure way for the oponents to win as the STB would most likely have ruled for the short line.The buyer screwed up by not building support with PR.It would have been better had a short line took over 10 years ago when it would have just been an asumption of operation. Maybe there was a reason why no other shortline never made a move.It is just a shame that the value of a short line railroad was never a factor in this debate.For the nuns and brothers I think it was more about right of way for hotels and housing.This could have been a win win because Notre Dame did want to get coal by rail but bowed to the wishes of others.I think it was even reported here a few years ago that they funded a study to run the line themselfs.Any way I will get off my soapbox and seek refuge of my video and pictures of CR blue running on that line.

Thank you kindly

ambrose

[Dan Lawecki(Guest)]

I drove into the old Drewrys complex Sunday afternoon.  The spur into the complex splits into two spurs.  One extends to the east side of the complex, and the other extends to the west side of the property.  Does anyone know what areas these spurs served during the time Drewrys was active?

I researched some Conrail ZTS maps from 1981.  The spurs in the old Drewrys complex were shown.  The east spur was identified as serving Liberty Steel, and the west spur was more or less labeled as a team track.

Dan Lawecki

[steve_wall]

I am really embarassed to say that having lived in South Bend for 20 years and shopping at Martin's next to Drewery's that I never poked around in there. Never even knew there was a rail spur into the complex.

[Dan Lawecki(Guest)]

I did some further research after I posted my question about the spur serving the former Drewrys facility.  The St. Joseph County Public Library has digital Sanborn maps for the entire state of Indiana, and if you have a library card, you can access the maps online.

The spur extending to the northwest quadrant of the Drewrys property was apparently used for the delivery of coal to the plant boiler house. The other spur ran alongside several buildings, one of which is identified on the Sanborn maps as an "empty bottle and box warehouse".

The Drewrys plant would have been served by a local train originating from Olivers Yard on the west side of South Bend, and this segment of the branchline was part of the NYC Western Division.  Where the tracks crossed under the Portage Avenue bridge, the line became part of the NYC Michigan Division.

Dan Lawecki

[bando1473]

I remember seeing 50ft box cars (light blue with black ends), with the Drewry's "Canadian Mounty" emblem, setting in the local yard at the west end of R.Young yard Elkhart about 40 years ago.

    Al Corwin

[ambrose(Guest)]

despite the NS pullout it seems to not be over.Check out the STB filings for new developments.

[tom(Guest)]

Thanks for digging up the extra information on the Drewery's Brewery plant and the purposes of the spurs.  I wonder when the last train worked that site and what it was carrying in the post-Drewery's era?

The tracks defy imagination today with their wobbly look and odd alignment.  The switch stand where the main spur connection joins the main track was still operable last time I checked.

In George Bradley's book on the Northern Indiana he has several pictures of this NYC line where it crossed or went under streetcar lines, including the Portage bridge.  He refers to this NYC line several times as a three I's line.  Does anyone know if this one of the three I lines or perhaps was he mistaken?

[Larry Lewis Jr(Guest)]

Its a shame about the Chicago, Lake Shore & South Bend Railway deal falling through. Once again the NIMBY types win. The ridiculous thing is that once the NS branch and ND&W are torn up, the same NIMBY's including the nuns and residents along the lines will be crabbing oh woe is us we don't have our line anymore. Same thing happened in Petoskey, Michigan when the shortline Alanson & Petoskey and short section of connecting Michigan Northern tracks were torn up due to NIMBY's in Petoskey and Bayview crabbed about the small SW1 of Alanson & Petsokey coming to the junction in Bayview. Of course the line has been gone since about 1993 and now they crab even more in bay view with even more thousands of vehicles crowding the roads in their little burg.

[tom(Guest)]

According to a September 1 article in the South Bend Tribune, the Chicago Lake Shore & South Bend dba South Bend Railway is officially dead.  The CLS&SB withdrew their petition to operate the line in the face of strong opposition.

More details are available at the South Bend Tribune's website where you can read the article or you can download the official filings with the Surface Transportation Board.

[ambrose(Guest)]

It looks like the City of South Bend and the other anti rail groups have now filed for abandonment of the line in question.This will be interesting as it would seem the owner NS would have to file for abandonment but we shall see.

ambrose

[tom(Guest)]

Maybe the City of South Bend will force the issue and quickly turn the former line (MC Connector) from Washington and College Avenues up to the St. Joe river into a bike trail.  They did the same thing in 1983 when they prematurely tore out Conrail's South Bend Secondary line from south of St. Joseph High School-which of course is today's East Race bike/hike trail.

I doubt that Holy Cross College and St. Mary's want a bike trail going through their property so my presumption is that the bike trail would end at Riverside to the northeast.

At least a bike trail would preserve the rail corridor vs. having it chopped up piecemeal.  An online study within the State of IN DOT site shows this rail line as designated for future bike trail use.

BTW, check out the Michiana rail plan in the South Bend library archives (local history section) from 1982.  Lots of interesting facts and maps regarding South Bend area railroads.

[indrr]

Here is the STB filing from the City/Sisters of the Holy Cross:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/6084f194b67ca1c4852567d9005751dc/40adbcdcb105fc7b852571ea0079d1ce/$FILE/217551.PDF

It is an interesting read.  Among other things, the city states their intent to construct a sewer line in place of the tracks.  They also have the desire to build a trail up to the river.  Holy Cross talks at length about the detriment of the tracks to their campus planning, etc, so I highly doubt they want a trail going through their grounds either.  It's disappointing though, since a trail connection to the university would probably be very popular.

A couple things that the petition states are that it has been more than 10 years since the last train was run, and that there are several crossings where the tracks have been torn out (by the city).  

First, I thought the last train was recorded on this website (probably about 1999) and so less than ten years ago.  I believe the 10 years standard is a threshold based on previous ICC decisions, so if there has been a train in the past 10 years, the argument is less valid.

Second, I think it is unfair for the city to claim that the line was "defacto" abandoned because the tracks were torn out at the crossings...by the city.  I think this is vandalism on the part of the city, not a valid arugment for abandonment.  If it is a valid argument, then it would set the precedence that any city can rip out huge chunks of rails of lines that they want to close and then claim that the railroad is "defacto" abandoned because the railroad can't repair the tracks.

[edit: just reread some of the postings from the old message board on the ND&W.  In a post 12/6/03 http://indiana.railfan.net/wwwboard/archive1/2459.html  Andy says "NS has performed all of the work paving over and/or removing crossings."  So that invalidates my point #2.

To search the old messages, go here: http://indiana.railfan.net/cgi/search/search.pl?p=1&lang=en&include=&exclude=&penalty=0&sort=&mode=all&q=notre+dame  Be careful where you click as some of the repliers' email addresses still lead to spam websites; their messages have been removed though.]

We'll see what happens with this filing...

[Rob]

Is NS the only one now who could contest this? Since the short line gave up on it last i heard?
If so, and they really want this issue buried, this could be an easy way for them to let it go without filing themselves?
I guess in time we shall see.

[ambrose(Guest)]

NS has wasted no time in getting in a reply.So are they for or against?They are only responding to the waver question and seem to suggest they don't want the city to get any special treatment as far as expedition goes.I guess we won't know their true feelings until an abandonment application is filed.Very interesting that they never filed on this line over the past 10 years and are not just standing by now.Should they be screaming "Hey we own this line and what are you doing" or is it part of the legal cat and mouse?.Are they just buying time to talk to another buyer?.Only time will answer these questions but it seems for sure this line will not die without some final suspense.

ambrose

[steve_wall]

Good thing that this line isn't in Chicago, or Mayor Daley would have bulldozed it in the dark of night, just like Meiggs Field.

[Tom Burke(Guest)]

My guess is that NS wants to be fairly compensated for the ROW and salvage materials.  

In 1983 the City of South Bend jumped the gun and removed Conrails tracks on the South Bend Secondary prior to formal abandonment in anticipation of its conversion to the current East Bank Trail.  Lightening could strike again.

[ambrose(Guest)]

CLS&SB replies to the STB.It sounds like they are still interested in the line and will protest harder when abandonment is actually filed for.They basically say don't give any special wavers.
NS seems to be mainly interested in not having any dangerous precedents set that could impact future proceedings.Still don't understand their not shouting "Hey we still own this line".
Will the shortline industry have anything so say?.I would almost bet on it.
More drama to come.

ambrose

[ambrose(Guest)]

STB released their decision on the requested exemptions in the 3rd party or adverse abandonment ap to be filed for the ND line.

The board allowed some and denied others.For one thing they will be required to publish a notice in the paper and it looks like they will have to do an environmental study.

The next step will be an actual abandonment application and then we will see what NS and CLS&SB will have to say. Short of having concrete commitments for freight use I don't know if CLS&B has a prayer or not to stop this.

The next few months will tell.Interesting reads for sure!.

ambrose

[Tom(Guest)]

Maybe the CLS&SB group should turn their focus to the NS "tank line" on South Bend's south side instead.  It has at least two active customers-unlike the line to ND-and goes though a mostly industrial neightborhood so NIMBY pressures would be minimal or non-existent.  It's unclear if the industry at the end of the line on the former PRR line still receives rail service.

People could ride trains and see the Studebaker ruins along the way  

[steve_wall]

I drove up to South Bend yesterday, and where the tracks cross business 31 by Notre Dame, there was a road widening program in progress. Looks like a right  hand turn lane off of 31 is being put in. I noted that care was being taken not to damage the tracks--it looked like a steel plate had been put over the tracks where the new turn lane had been graded.