Author Topic: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division  (Read 974 times)

Rick

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Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« on: November 09, 2019, 06:01:11 PM »
Apparently in cab signal territory 21v and z7x were involved.  Running on a restricting as well. 


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« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 06:37:56 PM by Rick »

IndyHog

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2019, 07:51:52 PM »
Heard Z7X ran into the rear of 21V, then derailed into the passing eastbound 20Q.
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hobodano

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2019, 09:38:57 PM »
https://www.wtae.com/article/live-video-train-derails-in-hempfield-township/29742496

Cleanup continues after three trains derail in Westmoreland County

HEMPFIELD TOWNSHIP, Pa. —

Cleanup is underway after more than a dozen train cars derailed after three trains collided Friday afternoon in Hempfield Township, Westmoreland County.

The train cars went off the track near Georges Station Road at the Norfolk Southern tracks near Twin Lakes Park. No injuries were reported, and officials said no hazardous materials are known to have spilled.

Watch Sky 4 video from the scene in the video player above.

Crews worked through the night Friday and throughout Saturday using cranes, excavators and other heavy equipment to clear the tracks of derailed rail cars and shipping containers.

Officials said they expect to restore train traffic to both mainlines by around midnight Saturday. Customers with traffic moving through the area should anticipate delays of 24-28 hours.
Train derailment 

Eleven rail cars transporting 50 shipping containers derailed. Two locomotives also derailed but remained upright. The derailment blocked train traffic on both tracks.

By midafternoon Saturday, crews had rerailed two locomotives and cleared the tracks of 11 rail cars and 50 shipping containers that derailed. Crews are now installing 42-foot-long track panels to replace damaged track.
Train derails

The cause of the derailment remains under investigation.

Firefighters and a hazmat team responded to the scene Friday afternoon, though officials said there was no hazmat concern or risk to public safety.

Officials from Norfolk Southern said a Norfolk Southern train was heading west transporting empty crude oil tank cars from Altoona to Conway when it collided with the back of another Norfolk Southern train.

Three rail cars transporting 18 shipping containers derailed off one of the trains.

Officials said some of the equipment that derailed hit a portion of another train that was traveling east on the adjacent mainline track, causing the derailment of an additional eight rail cars transporting 32 containers.

Fairly familiar with southern Indiana trackage

Rick

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2019, 10:28:43 PM »
Rumor has it the oil train was attempting to clear up a detector on a restricting when it collided with the other train. 


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jdonutken

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 06:58:45 PM »
Rumor has it the oil train was attempting to clear up a detector on a restricting when it collided with the other train. 


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Not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand-In this day of CTC, PTC, etc., how does this translate into one train hitting stopped one from behind?  What signal did the crew think they had?  What was visible from the cab of the train of the train in motion that they were unable to prevent contact?  Thanks for any details you can add...
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hobodano

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 07:27:19 PM »
Not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand-In this day of CTC, PTC, etc., how does this translate into one train hitting stopped one from behind?  What signal did the crew think they had?  What was visible from the cab of the train of the train in motion that they were unable to prevent contact?  Thanks for any details you can add...

https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/

The train that rear-ended the standing train was operating at restricted speed, under 20 mph. It was at the crest of an ascending grade and traversing a curve when it struck the standing train positioned on a descending grade.

The railroad is equipped with PTC (Positive Train Control) that has not yet been activated. However, PTC would not necessarily have prevented this restricted-speed collision, per the current regulation. This is because PTC enforces a railroad’s maximum restricted speed (15/20 mph), but is unable to determine the exact position of obstructions ahead (a stopped train, broken rail, improperly lined switch, etc.). PTC also cannot determine “half the range of vision” for a railroad’s restricted-speed rule. Based on Federal Railroad Administration RSAC (Railroad Safety Advisory Committee) proceedings, the acknowledgement was that PTC would mitigate the severity of restricted-speed accidents.

The current version of PTC, which is mandated to be fully implemented in the U.S. by Dec. 31, 2020, does not, through an EOT (end-of-train device), determine the position of the rear of a train and transmit that telemetry to a following train via the wayside and central office PTC equipment. As well, it will not prevent certain low-speed collisions caused by permissive block operation (more than one train in a block), accidents caused by trains “shoving” in reverse, derailments caused by track or train defects, grade crossing collisions, or collisions with previously derailed trains. Where PTC is installed in the absence of track circuit blocks (“dark territory”), it will not detect broken rails, flooded tracks, or debris fouling the right-of-way.

Such features as described above may be incorporated into the next generation of PTC, so-called “PTC 2.0.”
Fairly familiar with southern Indiana trackage

Rick

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Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 10:32:01 PM »
https://www.railwayage.com/safety/three-ns-trains-collide-in-western-pennsylvania/

The train that rear-ended the standing train was operating at restricted speed, under 20 mph. It was at the crest of an ascending grade and traversing a curve when it struck the standing train positioned on a descending grade.

The railroad is equipped with PTC (Positive Train Control) that has not yet been activated. However, PTC would not necessarily have prevented this restricted-speed collision, per the current regulation. This is because PTC enforces a railroad’s maximum restricted speed (15/20 mph), but is unable to determine the exact position of obstructions ahead (a stopped train, broken rail, improperly lined switch, etc.). PTC also cannot determine “half the range of vision” for a railroad’s restricted-speed rule. Based on Federal Railroad Administration RSAC (Railroad Safety Advisory Committee) proceedings, the acknowledgement was that PTC would mitigate the severity of restricted-speed accidents.

The current version of PTC, which is mandated to be fully implemented in the U.S. by Dec. 31, 2020, does not, through an EOT (end-of-train device), determine the position of the rear of a train and transmit that telemetry to a following train via the wayside and central office PTC equipment. As well, it will not prevent certain low-speed collisions caused by permissive block operation (more than one train in a block), accidents caused by trains “shoving” in reverse, derailments caused by track or train defects, grade crossing collisions, or collisions with previously derailed trains. Where PTC is installed in the absence of track circuit blocks (“dark territory”), it will not detect broken rails, flooded tracks, or debris fouling the right-of-way.

Such features as described above may be incorporated into the next generation of PTC, so-called “PTC 2.0.”
Well explained.  Again, here is an example of the crew being it’s own worst enemy when it comes to protecting their jobs. 

You are running at restricted speed.  You know 100% there is a train or obstruction in that block.  Why the hell are you operating at a speed faster than you can stop the train within half of your vision? The only remote excuse one could come up with is the engineer is on his/her first solo run and a new conductor fresh out of school.  Even then 99.9% of new engineers run very cautious.  An experienced crew or one that is even half way decent at their job would call the dispatcher or train crew ahead, ask how long their train is, and they should be able to figure out where the rear end is at.   This is why it’s important to know your territory and landmarks along the entire route.  And, on top of that, if you aren’t that familiar then don’t take the restricting signal and hold back.  This job isn’t rocket science but common sense does go a long way. 


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« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 07:36:48 AM by Rick »

CSX_CO

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2019, 07:41:03 AM »
Give it time and PTC will “know” where the rear of other trains are.

It already knows where the head end is thru GPS.  Not heard to take that point, know the train length, and predict where the rear of the train is.  Throw in a 200’ buffer, and now you have protection at restricted proceed.

EOT’s already give off location signals via cell phone so you can locate them. Switch that to GPS.

Bob Durnell

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2019, 02:25:15 PM »
Not that I am in favor of the PTC mandate, (I'm clearly not) but I find it sad and hilarious that that technology wasn't incorporated into the mandate in the first place.  In the mad dash to do "SOMETHING, ANYTHING", and do it NOW, we are ending up with a system that is so much less than it could be or should be.

rrnut282

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 02:37:17 PM »
Happens every time there is a knee-jerk reaction to a one-off event.  (chatsworth in this case.)
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Bob Durnell

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 06:46:30 PM »
You don't have to tell me.  Complete inaction followed up by misguided overreaction is how government operates.

CSX_CO

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2019, 07:05:24 PM »
Not that I am in favor of the PTC mandate, (I'm clearly not) but I find it sad and hilarious that that technology wasn't incorporated into the mandate in the first place.  In the mad dash to do "SOMETHING, ANYTHING", and do it NOW, we are ending up with a system that is so much less than it could be or should be.

Baby steps.  Technology first has to be proven.  Then you can add in the additional layers.

Currently, PTC will show if you’re lined up at a control point.  However, crews still have to go off the line side signals.  The day will come when the signals will be redundant, and crews can take the info PTC is giving them and “self dispatch” as it were.

xgap

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2019, 09:55:43 PM »
Well OK, But When, and how many more billions to get 2.0?
Good luck trying to explain to outsiders why today's PTC won't prevent such. And what if the oil train was loaded or the opposing train was Amtrak? One can  still run 19/14 and slam into any thing including the bumping block at the station??!  So it stands down here PTC when/if it works does little to nothing. 25% of some trips are at yard/restricted speed. Back in the old SRR days, one learned how to properly operate at restricted speed because of Trainmasters hiding behind every bush, LOL.

Bob Durnell

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2019, 07:56:35 AM »
Baby steps.  Technology first has to be proven.  Then you can add in the additional layers.

Currently, PTC will show if you’re lined up at a control point.  However, crews still have to go off the line side signals.  The day will come when the signals will be redundant, and crews can take the info PTC is giving them and “self dispatch” as it were.

I'm just not a fan of half measures, especially when you are spending somebody else's money.  I would rather delay implementation and get a comprehensive system instead of half measures.  That's why I am usually among the very last to jump on board whatever hot new technology is out there.  I prefer to let everybody waste their money on unproven overpriced junk and then I move in and buy the perfected product.  A few years ago, the government was in a mad rush to outlaw incandescent bulbs and force people to buy crappy performing mercury filled CFLs, when affordable vastly superior more energy efficient LED bulbs were just a couple years away.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 09:19:23 AM by Bob Durnell »

Rick

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2019, 08:03:23 AM »
Well OK, But When, and how many more billions to get 2.0?
Good luck trying to explain to outsiders why today's PTC won't prevent such. And what if the oil train was loaded or the opposing train was Amtrak? One can  still run 19/14 and slam into any thing including the bumping block at the station??!  So it stands down here PTC when/if it works does little to nothing. 25% of some trips are at yard/restricted speed. Back in the old SRR days, one learned how to properly operate at restricted speed because of Trainmasters hiding behind every bush, LOL.
And now you understand why ptc is a double edged sword right now.  Yes, it is a good thing in a few examples.  Yes, it’s a waste of money and time in others.  It will and can prevent some accidents and it can’t and won’t prevent others.  It was rushed through Congress to make a few look like they’ve accomplished something and then a few companies hastily came up with this system and have made hundreds of millions in doing so.  I have yet to see any data that shows ptc has prevented any catastrophic accident but have seen plenty of accidents that it couldn’t.  I’m sure it has prevented some major/catastrophic events I just haven’t seen it.  I don’t even know if that data exists. 

Trainmasters still shunt the tracks and banner test on the mains, they still do it in the yards and at industries too.  Those are FRA mandated.  Hit one of those and you bought yourself a nice year long or more vacation. 


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hobodano

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2019, 02:45:45 PM »
I'm just not a fan of half measures, especially when you are spending somebody else's money.  I would rather delay implementation and get a comprehensive system instead of half measures.  That's why I am usually among the very last to jump on board whatever hot new technology is out there.  I prefer to let everybody waste their money on unproven overpriced junk and then I move in and buy the perfected product.  A few years ago, the government was in a mad rush to outlaw incandescent bulbs and force people to buy crappy performing mercury filled CFLs, when affordable vastly superior more energy efficient LED bulbs were just a couple years away.

That’s a good “light bulb” analogy! PTC started in 2008 and extends again to Dec. 31, 2020

On October 16, 2008, the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008 (RSIA) was enacted, establishing the PTC system implementation mandate and the original December 31, 2015 deadline.  As directed by RSIA, FRA issued regulations specifying the essential technical functionalities of PTC systems and FRA PTC certification criteria.

Approximately two months before the original PTC implementation deadline of December 31, 2015, the House and Senate overwhelmingly passed the Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015 (PTCEI Act).  The legislation was signed into law on October 29, 2015.  The PTCEI Act extended the deadline for full implementation of PTC systems from December 31, 2015, to at least December 31, 2018.

The PTCEI Act requires FRA to grant a railroad a deadline extension to a date no later than December 31, 2020, if a railroad submits a written request for an extension that demonstrates it has met the statutory criteria.

Fairly familiar with southern Indiana trackage

CSX_CO

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Re: Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2019, 06:20:00 PM »
I have yet to see any data that shows ptc has prevented any catastrophic accident but have seen plenty of accidents that it couldn’t.  I’m sure it has prevented some major/catastrophic events I just haven’t seen it.  I don’t even know if that data exists. 

Same can be said for having two men in the cab.  No data to show that the 2nd person prevented a catastrophe.  Plenty of data when it doesn’t though.

Rick

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Ns had a rear end on Pittsburgh division
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2019, 07:58:27 PM »
Same can be said for having two men in the cab.  No data to show that the 2nd person prevented a catastrophe.  Plenty of data when it doesn’t though.
You got that right.  However, among t&e employees when one of us has prevented an issue we all know about most of them.  Some things are kept between the two in the cab though.  I’m sure you’ve had a few over your career where you were the alerter or the one being alerted to something you didn’t see or didn’t remember at that time.


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