Author Topic: NKP track removal to begin  (Read 7395 times)

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2019, 11:30:57 AM »
I suspect the fine elected officials of Hamilton County will do whatever the hell they please, and on the odd chance somebody actually steps up to challenge it, they will be  they will be completely ignored, so unless they can afford better lawyers than the county has, tough crap.  Sort of like the fine tradition we have in Fort Wayne of writing the narrative, then conveniently adjusting the "facts" to fit.  When you are the government, you just keep hiring lawyers and or consultants until you get one that agrees with your premise.  I think the Headwaters Junction people are starting to get this treatment too.

CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2019, 12:24:13 PM »
It’s been awhile since I read it, but the I believe the trail agreement reads that any structures must be removed when/if returned to service.

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2019, 12:37:24 PM »
At who's expense, the taxpayers? 

trainmaster53

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2019, 12:57:07 PM »
For one, I cannot believe that the Nickel Plate Express folks would allow the Tracks to be removed from Noblesville to 38th Street, When They Could be Making Money. Why would you pass up the Fact that You can make Money by Operating to the State Fair Grounds. If ITM could bring in $250,000 Dollars just from the Fair Train, Why couldn't the Nickel Plate Express. But then Again They have a Member from Fishers on their Board as Well. To Me that is a Conflict of Interest, Any Way You Look at It and This Guy will Do what ever He Wants. And To Hell with the Folks in Indianapolis that would want to ride train to Fishers or Noblesville or Even Points North on the Line. What a Waist.

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2019, 01:18:04 PM »
Well, just one of the million dollar questions;  Did the parties involved make ANY serious attempt to find an operator interested in operating the entire line, OR, try to make operating the Fair Train  a contingent to getting the other business?  I have a pretty good idea what the answer is to that one........

BourdonBoy

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2019, 01:41:50 PM »
For one, I cannot believe that the Nickel Plate Express folks would allow the Tracks to be removed from Noblesville to 38th Street, When They Could be Making Money. Why would you pass up the Fact that You can make Money by Operating to the State Fair Grounds. If ITM could bring in $250,000 Dollars just from the Fair Train, Why couldn't the Nickel Plate Express.

A member of the leadership of Nickel Plate Express had told me that their operating contract with the HHPA only extends as far south as SR 32 / Conner Street (south side of the courthouse square), so they would have no grounds to make any sort of case for retaining the track south of there, even if they wanted to.  And of course the owners have made it clear they want that section of the track gone regardless, so there's no way they would have been open to such a negotiation anyway.

As for a FairTrain, allegedly the FRA (yes, really them this time, I think) got caught with its tail between its legs in having permitted railroad museums like ITM to operate trains to annual events like state fairs for so long (since 1983 in ITM's case).  The claim is that it shouldn't have been permitted because doing so apparently classified those organizations as commuter railroads, requiring a whole host of additional requirements to be met (legal, financial, equipment specs, insurance, probably also taxes, etc.) because large groups of people were paying to be transported on a scheduled basis to and from a major event.  So the FRA has apparently decreed that such activities are permanently forbidden.  More than one railroad professional has told me this, but I have yet to be able to find anying official about this in writing.  If any of you fine and knowledgeable people know about this, please share if you can.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:00:03 PM by BourdonBoy »

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2019, 01:57:48 PM »
Sounds like a typical government agency thing.  Only a complete idiot or a bureaucrat (often the same thing) would equate what the ITM was doing with a commuter operation.  It was a non-profit offering a service to a special event for two weeks out of a year and they were not competing against any other operation providing the same or even similar service.  The ITM could simply say they were offering daily excursion rides to 38th Street (effectively the end of track) in Indianapolis and make no mention of the State Fair.

Hemigray 42

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2019, 01:59:59 PM »
While cruising the subject of fishers rail to trail I found a copy on their web site for trail agreement and several pieces of contract are questionable regarding removal of rail and repair of crossings which this scrap company is not doing.

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CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2019, 02:10:47 PM »
Sounds like a typical government agency thing.  Only a complete idiot or a bureaucrat (often the same thing) would equate what the ITM was doing with a commuter operation.  It was a non-profit offering a service to a special event for two weeks out of a year and they were not competing against any other operation providing the same or even similar service.

Does IndyGo run bus service along that corridor? 

trainmaster53

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2019, 02:26:57 PM »
If that is the Case, Then How does French Lick get by with Operating Jasper Trains from Jasper to the Casino at French Lick then with Paying Customers.

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2019, 02:48:41 PM »
Does IndyGo run bus service along that corridor?

According to their website, they don't operate north of 86th street.

CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2019, 03:36:46 PM »
If that is the Case, Then How does French Lick get by with Operating Jasper Trains from Jasper to the Casino at French Lick then with Paying Customers.

Because they don’t market them as a gambling train?  A day long excursion between two points is different than scheduled hourly runs named after where the train is going...

I would imagine ITM was grandfathered into any policy changes until they stopped running them.

This is also one of the early talking points Scraphauler brought up when the ITM dumpster started smoldering.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:22:52 PM by CSX_CO »

coal road

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2019, 06:21:50 PM »
Isn't it true that the FRA has no jurisdiction on a rail line that is NOT connected to the national rail network?  I know I had read that somewhere in the past and had seen photos of a stick of rail removed to achieve this status. 

scraphauler

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2019, 06:34:28 PM »
Isn't it true that the FRA has no jurisdiction on a rail line that is NOT connected to the national rail network?  I know I had read that somewhere in the past and had seen photos of a stick of rail removed to achieve this status.

In short, not true.   Go to part 240 Q&A.  https://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/1597

Second page spells it out

CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2019, 06:34:51 PM »
Isn't it true that the FRA has no jurisdiction on a rail line that is NOT connected to the national rail network?  I know I had read that somewhere in the past and had seen photos of a stick of rail removed to achieve this status.

As long as it’s a “museum” or tourist line.

Once you cross into “commuter” operating then being insular has no bearing.  That was the crux of the ITM issue with the fair train.  If deemed commuter, the FRA regulations change, so would ADA requirements, etc.

Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2019, 06:44:00 PM »
Well, to make the point again, if the FRA can't see the distinction between the Fair Train and a commuter operation, then we should just abolish the whole department and reassign the the decisions makers there to jobs they are more qualified for like working at Dairy Queen.

Webnauseum

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2019, 07:05:20 PM »
I believe there still is a program left over from the Obama years where cities can get federal grant money to build "fitness" infrastructure....this might be part of their motivation for pushing this .
Something  about trying to get little fat kids away from their gaming consoles

CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2019, 07:19:41 PM »
Well, to make the point again, if the FRA can't see the distinction between the Fair Train and a commuter operation, then we should just abolish the whole department and reassign the the decisions makers there to jobs they are more qualified for like working at Dairy Queen.

So...what’s the distinction then?

According to uslegal.com

“According to 49 CFR 374.303 [Title 49 – Transportation; Subtitle B Other Regulations Relating to Transportation; Chapter III Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, Department of Transportation; Subchapter B Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations; Part 374 Passenger Carrier Regulations; Subpart C Adequacy of Intercity Motor Common Carrier Passenger Service], commuter service means “passenger transportation wholly between points not more than 100 airline miles apart and not involving through-bus, connecting, or interline services to or from points beyond 100 airline miles. The usual characteristics of commuter service include reduced fare, multiple-ride, and commutation tickets, and peak morning and evening operations.””

Does that fit the Fair Train?  Moot point.


Bob Durnell

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2019, 09:06:11 PM »
In a sane world where people can walk and chew gum at the time, not in a million years, but to a government bureaucrat or worse yet, a government lawyer, I'm sure they could make a case, because in their world, defending the bureaucracy is more important than common sense.  This is the equivalent of make a Girl Scout get a retail business license to sell cookies door to door. 

CSX_CO

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Re: NKP track removal to begin
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2019, 09:23:14 PM »
In a sane world where people can walk and chew gum at the time, not in a million years, but to a government bureaucrat or worse yet, a government lawyer, I'm sure they could make a case, because in their world, defending the bureaucracy is more important than common sense.  This is the equivalent of make a Girl Scout get a retail business license to sell cookies door to door.

So, you’d be ok with open air cars, link and pin couplers, dry “hopper” toilets etc on an every day commuter operation?

Or, should there be some measure of safety and compliance on equipment being used on something more than a 20 mile excursion? Fair train equipment wasn’t making a single round trip a day.  It was making multiple trips.

I’m as anti-bloated Government as anyone, but realize there needs to be some enforceable standards.