Author Topic: Train Derailment in Terre Haute  (Read 1731 times)

trainmaster53

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Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« on: May 31, 2019, 07:14:44 PM »
Heard that there was a Train Derailment in Terre Haute this after Noon. Any Details on it.

OSIJ

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 07:21:41 PM »
Four covered hoppers with grain on the ground a 19th and Maple St. No injuries reported.

trainmaster53

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 07:41:28 PM »
What is going on with all the Train Derailments that CSX is having all over the Country. Heard that there was one in South Carolina as well.

scraphauler

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2019, 08:13:43 PM »
This was not CSX - Decatur and Eastern.  Crap happens
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trainmaster53

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2019, 08:45:44 PM »
It was posted as a CSX Coal Train that Derailed  in Abbeville SC. We got it from a Reliable Source. The Grain Train in Terre Haute was on the CSX St Louis Main Line Headed for the Decatur and Eastern Railroad.

scraphauler

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2019, 09:06:02 PM »
Terre Haute was a D&E bean train with Bunge cars on yard track along side main line - 3 cars flopped over.  Abbeville was 14 coal cars, 5 on side.  Both fairly minor in grand scheme.  Causes under investigation.  UP had train run past end of siding into side of passing coal train in Wisconsin a couple dats ago.  CSX had a big one in Ohio seemingly caused by machinable failure. NS  has a big sideswipe invoking a remote job. All this week. The list goes on. Just another day in paradise.
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Rick

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2019, 08:34:38 AM »
Another remote involved in an accident?  Say it isnít so. 


If there was an accident thread and every accident was reported just between csx and ns, the thread would be updated weekly.  Theses things happen and happen often but when you factor in the number of trains and moves that occur without incident these accidents are actually a small percent. 


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IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2019, 10:32:38 AM »
They may be a small percent but many have the potential for personal injury for T&E and other crews and sometimes the general public. Perhaps it's time the unions started keeping track of them, because we know the carriers bury the information.
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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2019, 11:23:06 AM »
They may be a small percent but many have the potential for personal injury for T&E and other crews and sometimes the general public. Perhaps it's time the unions started keeping track of them, because we know the carriers bury the information.
Thatís a double edged sword there.  I donít have factual data but Iíll bet a paycheck that these are mostly human error.  This just gives the company another reason to get rid of people.  You will not get rid of all accidents, risk of injury is just part of the job but keeping them at a bare minimum would be ideal. 

Iíd like to see numbers comparing remote engines and engineer/conductor jobs over an equal time period and accidents that occurred.


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IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2019, 11:27:53 AM »
Thatís a double edged sword there.  I donít have factual data but Iíll bet a paycheck that these are mostly human error.  This just gives the company another reason to get rid of people.  You will not get rid of all accidents, risk of injury is just part of the job but keeping them at a bare minimum would be ideal. 

Iíd like to see numbers comparing remote engines and engineer/conductor jobs over an equal time period and accidents that occurred.


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If a derailment is caused by human error you can bet your sweet A$$ that someone is going to get charged. You've been around. The carriers want these remotes to work so badly that they cover up their "accidents" just like they cover up injuries.
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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2019, 12:20:05 PM »
They may be a small percent but many have the potential for personal injury for T&E and other crews and sometimes the general public. Perhaps it's time the unions started keeping track of them, because we know the carriers bury the information.

Thatís a pretty bold statement. If you have proof of a carrier hiding derailments you shouldnít be quiet, and contact the FRA.  Thatís a serious violation of FRA rules.

Otherwise, every derailment/accident I see gets entered into the national ďrailway accident reportingĒ data base.  No matter how minor.

I doubt the unions would want to keep track, might not paint their membership in the best of light...


If a derailment is caused by human error you can bet your sweet A$$ that someone is going to get charged. You've been around. The carriers want these remotes to work so badly that they cover up their "accidents" just like they cover up injuries.

Thatís going to depend on your field supervisors.  Funny thing about derailment cause codes is some allow some flexibility in them.  Know of an example where a newly marked up conductor, with a family I assume, will continue to have a career.  Believe they may have been under ďprobationĒ and not union protections, so could ave been fired on the spot.

Around here, the guys on the ground want them to work so bad too.  But, thatís a topic for another day...

IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2019, 12:40:26 PM »
I wasn't talking about "hiding" derailments, sideswipes etc. but not assigning the correct cause to the incident. Railroads have been fined in the past for discouraging or firing employees for reporting injuries.
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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 12:54:19 PM »
I wasn't talking about "hiding" derailments, sideswipes etc. but not assigning the correct cause to the incident. Railroads have been fined in the past for discouraging or firing employees for reporting injuries.

Thereís your double edged sword again.  I guess taking some consideration of the individualís reputation and work ethic shouldnít be a factor then either.  Then weíre back to your statement that the railroad is just fire happy then.

How about we just agree there is some leeway in cause codes, and that may not necessarily be a bad thing for the ground guys.

Other than the above example of work ethic and reputation, Iíve never seen an accident get mis-reported just because it was a remote job.  Up until the last week, the UTU/SMART said those 1 man remotes jobs are perfectly safe.  Now that the FRA has pulled any crew consist protections, they're suddenly the devil.

When the rules are followed they are perfectly safe. Just like a conventional job.  Considering most remotes are low speed in terminals, most of those incidents are minor in scope.  Itís the big ole headline grabbing mainline derailments, like Cayce, SC a few years ago, that cost the big $. Those are usually conventional crews involved in those.  When human error is involved in those, its catastrophic what can happen.  Most of those you just say the location, and railroaders will know. Cayce. Graniteville. Chatsworth. Chase. Etc.

IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2019, 01:40:36 PM »
How about we just agree that remotes are here to stay, are less productive than manned switch engines, cost jobs and help erode the Railroad Retirement system. I would expect Smart/UTU to defend them, it is their baby after all.
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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2019, 09:19:55 PM »
How about we just agree that remotes are here to stay, are less productive than manned switch engines, cost jobs and help erode the Railroad Retirement system. I would expect Smart/UTU to defend them, it is their baby after all.

I wonít argue your points. Thankfully I saw both sides of the transition.  Conventional jobs with 50 and 60 year old employees, and remotes with the ďred assesĒ.

Those 50 and 60 year olds could go toe to toe with a RCO.  That tells me 1 man remotes arenít necessarily the end all be all.  Unfortunately, in the last decade, the art of running an engine has been lost.

So...since they go toe to toe, itís the argument of productivity vs efficiency.

Conventional jobs can be very productive. 

1 man RCOís can be very efficient.

Look at it from a car per man basis.  Letís say 3 pullers have 6 men conventional, and 3 as 1 man RCO.  We will ďhideĒ the additional U man for the RCOís.

If the 6 total men on the 3 conventional pullers pull 1200 cars.  Thatís 200 cars per man.  Incredibly productive.

Say those 3 RCI JOBS average 200 each too.  Thatís 600 cars.  Thatís incredibly efficient, but not nearly as productive.

So...what are you looking for? Productive or efficient?

Anyway...delving on a subject long removed from the amount of derailments CSX has compared to other carriers.

IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2019, 11:05:54 PM »
Agreed.  All railroads have derailments. Seems like a cost of doing business almost. It's just like grade crossing accidents. They happen all the time, every day somewhere.
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hytwr1

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2019, 02:13:04 PM »
Unfortunately, in the last decade, the art of running an engine has been lost.

Ain't that the truth. Heck some guys can't even get whistle signals right anymore. Somebody working Terre Haute uses two shorts for everything forward backup doesn't matter. Drives me nuts when I hear two shorts and see the train back up!

Power braking is a lost art on some too.

There's still a couple guys who run the St Louis line who will boogie right into town at 40 and stand on the brakes. Most are down to 25 before the hit the Haleys...

Lots of old stuff lost over the last few years...

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2019, 04:00:17 PM »
Ain't that the truth. Heck some guys can't even get whistle signals right anymore. Somebody working Terre Haute uses two shorts for everything forward backup doesn't matter. Drives me nuts when I hear two shorts and see the train back up!

Power braking is a lost art on some too.

There's still a couple guys who run the St Louis line who will boogie right into town at 40 and stand on the brakes. Most are down to 25 before the hit the Haleys...

Lots of old stuff lost over the last few years...
Two shorts is used to acknowledge the engineer understands what he was told to do whether itís forward or reverse after heís acknowledged over the radio if thatís how it was received.  Some guys do that some donít and prefer just to talk on the radio.  Sometimes itís a response to hand signals just to let the conductor know heís received and to let others around know heís about to start moving.  At night in a yard itís helpful especially if the air isnít setup throughout the train.  If you can hear the brakes release then thereís a good chance that cut of cars is getting ready to move.  If you hear the horn then you should be looking to see whoís getting ready to move. 

As for the air, csx maybe different but first course of action to slowing a train is dynamic on NS.  There are of course exceptions to this rule.  This is for line of road too.  Air is always used when in a yard.  Engineers can be written up for improper use of brakes in these situations.  Iím not sure if itís US wide but I understand conrail wasnít as critical of train handling so air was used more frequently.  Things changed when ns took over as I understand it when it comes to slowing or stopping.  Iíve heard stories of old heads that all it took was one practice stop/slowing with the air to see how the train sets up and then they were Golden the whole trip.  There was one guy that no matter what train it was he could stop so the front steps where right at a cone.  No jockeying of the throttle, no running release, just gradual application of the air.  Even now, depending on length, tonnage, speed and terrain I believe once you go past first service you have to bring the train to a stop.  There are rules for a running release.  Thereís an ns engineer on here so he can clarify this if I donít have the exact information on that.  A you better have job insurance if you have to dump the train. 




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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 06:15:17 PM »
The reason the old heads were so good with air is because they didnít have dynamic brakes for much of their career.  That, it they didnít work. That, or they werenít nearly as good as theyíve gotten in the last 20 years.  An AC6000 had such good dynamic brakes you wouldnít have to touch the air.

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 06:58:17 PM »
The reason the old heads were so good with air is because they didnít have dynamic brakes for much of their career.  That, it they didnít work. That, or they werenít nearly as good as theyíve gotten in the last 20 years.  An AC6000 had such good dynamic brakes you wouldnít have to touch the air.
I never even thought of that.  I know engineers love the newer ACís and their dynamics.  There are some dc motors with pretty decent dynamics still around but you are right in that many trips the air is never used. 


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hytwr1

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2019, 11:03:02 PM »
Two shorts is used to acknowledge the engineer understands what he was told to do whether itís forward or reverse after heís acknowledged over the radio if thatís how it was received.  Some guys do that some donít and prefer just to talk on the radio.  Sometimes itís a response to hand signals just to let the conductor know heís received and to let others around know heís about to start moving.  At night in a yard itís helpful especially if the air isnít setup throughout the train. If you can hear the brakes release then thereís a good chance that cut of cars is getting ready to move.  If you hear the horn then you should be looking to see whoís getting ready to move. 
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Having used them for a few years my problem with it is if you are going to acknowledge the transmission with it you need to follow up with the correct signal for the direction you are going to move. Otherwise the people working around you have no idea what way you are moving. Two shorts pause then three and back up.  I guess it is a crew preference. When you have two trains on adjacent tracks facing same direction and both blow the same signal but move in opposite directions it makes you go hmmm... LoL

Regarding braking, maybe the guys standing on the brakes are using both. I can hear the dynamics kick in but also see the shoe smoke. I am well aware of the NS dynamic rule too. They are all over guys who use any shoes and will check the box to make sure you don't.

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2019, 09:03:25 AM »
Having used them for a few years my problem with it is if you are going to acknowledge the transmission with it you need to follow up with the correct signal for the direction you are going to move. Otherwise the people working around you have no idea what way you are moving. Two shorts pause then three and back up.  I guess it is a crew preference. When you have two trains on adjacent tracks facing same direction and both blow the same signal but move in opposite directions it makes you go hmmm... LoL

Regarding braking, maybe the guys standing on the brakes are using both. I can hear the dynamics kick in but also see the shoe smoke. I am well aware of the NS dynamic rule too. They are all over guys who use any shoes and will check the box to make sure you don't.
Very good point.  I have not encountered that situation but I can see how it could cause a problem.   

Isnít it nice to know that someone in Atlanta can see your every move from a computer?


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scraphauler

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2019, 10:14:33 AM »
Two more big derailments yesterday. NS double stacks in Ohio and UP coal in Iowa.  Last I heard it was a  CSX spy who left a vehicle abandoned on the NS line causing that pile up and a rouge CSX person who left the switch lined wrong in Iowa  :P
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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2019, 10:48:12 PM »
Two more big derailments yesterday. NS double stacks in Ohio and UP coal in Iowa.  Last I heard it was a  CSX spy who left a vehicle abandoned on the NS line causing that pile up and a rouge CSX person who left the switch lined wrong in Iowa  :P

Sounds like another one in NS in W Va today.

FRA better start looking into them /s

huelsy

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2019, 03:24:20 AM »
Sounds like another one in NS in W Va today.

FRA better start looking into them /s

That the one with the hi-railer?

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2019, 08:04:18 AM »
Two more big derailments yesterday. NS double stacks in Ohio and UP coal in Iowa.  Last I heard it was a  CSX spy who left a vehicle abandoned on the NS line causing that pile up and a rouge CSX person who left the switch lined wrong in Iowa  :P

When will these roads quit hiring such incredibly partisan employees? They need to understand that when one road looks bad, they all do!
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xgap

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2019, 11:55:12 PM »
Thankfully the NS stack pile up wasn't one of that route's Amtraks.

When will these roads quit hiring such incredibly partisan employees? They need to understand that when one road looks bad, they all do!


LOL, Dependent on the where and when of one's perspective. Then to others it could be comparable to the Ford -Chevy-Chrysler choice.

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2019, 01:14:41 PM »
Thatís a double edged sword there.  I donít have factual data but Iíll bet a paycheck that these are mostly human error.  This just gives the company another reason to get rid of people.  You will not get rid of all accidents, risk of injury is just part of the job but keeping them at a bare minimum would be ideal. 

Iíd like to see numbers comparing remote engines and engineer/conductor jobs over an equal time period and accidents that occurred.


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Very good points. To use a local company as an example, and I'll go ahead and open up the hornets nest of single-man crews, too:  the INRD has had one FRA-reportable derailment with a single-man road freight. And it was the fault of the engineer for not properly using trainline air. INRD has also had one employee on-duty fatality with a two-man crew, and it was also human error. Be careful what you wish for.

IndyHog

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2019, 01:16:24 PM »
Aren't all accidents some form of human error?
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Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2019, 04:43:57 PM »
Very good points. To use a local company as an example, and I'll go ahead and open up the hornets nest of single-man crews, too:  the INRD has had one FRA-reportable derailment with a single-man road freight. And it was the fault of the engineer for not properly using trainline air. INRD has also had one employee on-duty fatality with a two-man crew, and it was also human error. Be careful what you wish for.
No need to be careful when I base my stance on facts, not what is popular.  Iíd like to honestly see what the numbers are for remotes and two man switching crews in the same yard or division for a given time.  The hours paid, the cars moved, the accidents that occurred along with cost of maintenance. 

Since railroads arenít humping near the cars they were 30 years ago, Iíd say remotes are on par with two man jobs today.  The main money consumer with remotes Iíve witnessed are repair costs.  For every hour working on those you take away an electrician and machinist from other work.  Then that backlogs those engines getting repaired/maintained which causes delays on the road and it dominoes from there. 

There is also a big difference in using a single man crew on a small railroad like INRD vs a class 1. 


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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2019, 10:37:47 PM »
No need to be careful when I base my stance on facts, not what is popular.  Iíd like to honestly see what the numbers are for remotes and two man switching crews in the same yard or division for a given time.  The hours paid, the cars moved, the accidents that occurred along with cost of maintenance. 

Since railroads arenít humping near the cars they were 30 years ago, Iíd say remotes are on par with two man jobs today.  The main money consumer with remotes Iíve witnessed are repair costs.  For every hour working on those you take away an electrician and machinist from other work.  Then that backlogs those engines getting repaired/maintained which causes delays on the road and it dominoes from there. 

There is also a big difference in using a single man crew on a small railroad like INRD vs a class 1. 


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What happens to that train if something happens to that one person on that train

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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2019, 11:34:44 PM »
What happens to that train if something happens to that one person on that train

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Train comes to a stop.

sfunk6363

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2019, 11:36:05 PM »
Train comes to a stop.
How

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IU_Tower

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2019, 11:39:40 PM »
How

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Doesn't the train come to a stop if the Alerter isn't reset? Assuming that the engine pulling has an Alerter built in of course.

sfunk6363

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2019, 11:43:08 PM »
How

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The smaller roads willnot have ptc in use so how doyou stop those one person trains

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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2019, 11:47:42 PM »
The smaller roads willnot have ptc in use so how doyou stop those one person trains

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Alerter will stop the train if not acknowledged

sfunk6363

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2019, 11:50:52 PM »


Alerter will stop the train if not acknowledged

Ok so that means that all engines have alerters on them

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CSX_CO

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2019, 11:52:59 PM »

Ok so that means that all engines have alerters on them

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Supposed to.  Or some other kind of dead mans device.  Supposed to be operational too.

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Re: Train Derailment in Terre Haute
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2019, 04:30:23 PM »

Ok so that means that all engines have alerters on them

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As mentioned already, yes.  I believe itís FRA that it must be tested before the engine is moved for that job. 


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