Author Topic: Waylaid Caboose  (Read 2399 times)

CIND 2254

  • Global Moderator
  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Modeling high Hood GP30s on the CERA ca. 1996-1998
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 09:38:20 AM »
Iím curious, does it not show the waybilled destination? Iím surprised in 2019 that info like that seems to be hard to come by.
Modeling High Hood GP30s on the CERA based in Kokomo circa. 1996-1998.

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 09:54:05 AM »
Yes, Patio yard is in Winchester KY.
Thanks. Not familiar with the territory down there. At least it isn't sitting in some field or customer spur.

CSX_CO

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 8088
  • Ok...lets get our stories straight......
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 10:42:06 AM »
Iím curious, does it not show the waybilled destination? Iím surprised in 2019 that info like that seems to be hard to come by.

It did on clearance message.  Donít think the issue isnít necessarily knowing where car was going, but decision was made not to set it off at Connersville for  whatever reason.

It was stated earlier in this thread "Caboose rides rear per rules and clearance instructions."

The question in my mind is that if the caboose itself is travelling as revenue freight and not as a traditional caboose, is it still subject to caboose handling rules? Other than the short length, was is different about how a caboose is handled in a train compared to a small covered hopper or small tank car?

If not subject to caboose handling rules, it certainly was restricted by the clearance message stating it must ride the rear.  My guess is they didnít want the frame subjected to the in train forces if handled anywhere else.  Since it sounds like the car wasnít used in regular service in hamlet, they took the safe course and put a rear end handling restriction on it.

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 12:23:14 PM »
Indyhog,

I just sent you a pm.

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 12:52:25 PM »
Since the car is still carrying CSXT reporting marks and aei tags, I can see where mechanical would make a mistake and tag it for scrap. It probably shows in the system as a company car. That may explain some of the skip the connersville set out and routing back to NC too.

Not being familiar with the sale/purchase transactions in this case, I am surprised CSX let it move that way if it is already off the books unless they were doing a free move. Scrap can tell you there is a specific time frame you have after the sale to remove their reporting marks and apply your own.

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2019, 01:32:30 PM »
I’m curious, does it not show the waybilled destination? I’m surprised in 2019 that info like that seems to be hard to come by.

Yes, information is there, but can get lost or missed.  And it's not just a CSXT problem - it's an industry problem, and it relates to the logic in the computer systems.   Getting real world events to fit into an automated computer system can be a challange.  The underlaying logic that all the systems (be it a class 1's home grown system or a GE-RC2 sytem like we use) is that locmotives, cabooses, and end of train devices are NOT revenue cars and do not require a waybill and do not interchange.  You have to manually over-ride or add a "business rule" to accomidate for the locos, cabooses, and eots to report and interchange.  This is a gross over simplification but I think helps explain how one-offs can get confused.

CSXT, to their credit, once you finally get the billing applied, it sticks.  Gettting it applied can be a challage sometime - it's not uncommon for the one off vehicle to leave origin terminal and set at next terminal as a no bill until someone fixes.  I had a GP20 that came out of KY that sat in Avon as a no bill until CSX_CO fixed for me, and this caboose in question sat in Chattanooga as a no bill until it got fixed.  But once fixed, it stayed fixed even it it was "misrouted".  AS soon as the decision was made by whomever to highball the set off of the caboose, the car went into misroute stauts and counts agains someone's matrix somewhere.  NS does not do that.  Miss you set off for what ever reason, billing blows up and it never hits anyone's misroute report - it just vanishes and when it hits the next terminal, they just kick it out as quickly as possible to it doesnt count against them.  So you end up with a locomotive moving from Buffalo to Cincinnati miss it's set off in Sharonville per dispatchers orders to keep mainline flowing end up in Louisville as a no bill so they send to St Louis who kicks back to Deactur who kicked to Ft Wayne who kicked to Bellevue who send back to Cincinnati who kciked to Loiuisville again and away we go. 

But again, its the underlaying computer logic - odd ball stuff is sticking the proverbial round peg in a square hole. 
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2019, 01:45:43 PM »
Since the car is still carrying CSXT reporting marks and aei tags, I can see where mechanical would make a mistake and tag it for scrap. It probably shows in the system as a company car. That may explain some of the skip the connersville set out and routing back to NC too.

Not being familiar with the sale/purchase transactions in this case, I am surprised CSX let it move that way if it is already off the books unless they were doing a free move. Scrap can tell you there is a specific time frame you have after the sale to remove their reporting marks and apply your own.

I was kind of surprised to see it moving with CSX marks.  I would have gladly let him use my private mark (REDX) if he would have asked.  I don't think it running as a CSX mark had anything to do with skipping set off - if it was REDX marked I don't think anything in INDIANA would have changed.  It was tacked to the ass end of a 3000' block of containers - luck of the draw of the day it got built outbound at Hawthorne.  Even if they would have ran the train as a local rather that turning into a W series train, I bet it still would have been skipped having that large of a Cincinnati block between it and the Connersville block.  If they still would have been a J train, they would have done their normal work at Connersville, then had to pull all of their Cincinnati cars they picked up AND the 3000' block past the yard to drop the caboose from rear, re hang the marker, and walk the train back up.  EASILY would have added an hour.  Then they would have been tight on time and would have probably killed him at McGonigal which means burning a crew to go drag the train in.

Now, if it had a private mark in it when they derailed it,  they would have had to follow Rule 107 proceedure and could not just decide to scrap.  I;m sure the folks in Winchester thought that it was a company car.
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2019, 01:48:44 PM »
Why can't you just enter the locomotive or the caboose in the system as a freight car, IF essentially that's what it is?

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 01:54:54 PM »
I was kind of surprised to see it moving with CSX marks.  I would have gladly let him use my private mark (REDX) if he would have asked.  I don't think it running as a CSX mark had anything to do with skipping set off - if it was REDX marked I don't think anything in INDIANA would have changed.  It was tacked to the ass end of a 3000' block of containers - luck of the draw of the day it got built outbound at Hawthorne.  Even if they would have ran the train as a local rather that turning into a W series train, I bet it still would have been skipped having that large of a Cincinnati block between it and the Connersville block.  If they still would have been a J train, they would have done their normal work at Connersville, then had to pull all of their Cincinnati cars they picked up AND the 3000' block past the yard to drop the caboose from rear, re hang the marker, and walk the train back up.  EASILY would have added an hour.  Then they would have been tight on time and would have probably killed him at McGonigal which means burning a crew to go drag the train in.

Now, if it had a private mark in it when they derailed it,  they would have had to follow Rule 107 proceedure and could not just decide to scrap.  I;m sure the folks in Winchester thought that it was a company car.

We are on the same page...or is it track. LoL

An fwiw, indyhog is not the owner either; just forwarded the information. I am guessing whomever it is is not part of this thread?

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2019, 02:01:11 PM »
Why can't you just enter the locomotive or the caboose in the system as a freight car, IF essentially that's what it is?

Equipment has to be in UMLER.  Not in UMLER, you can't even bill.  The computer system pulls the UMLER record in so that weights, lengths, special restrictions, etc., are loaded in into system for that particular car.  And the base logic that the car management system are based on says that anything with a mechanical designation starting with D or M (such as this caboose which is registered as car type of M930) are not revenue freight cars.
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

CSX_CO

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 8088
  • Ok...lets get our stories straight......
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2019, 02:02:45 PM »
Why can't you just enter the locomotive or the caboose in the system as a freight car, IF essentially that's what it is?

Might be able to with the caboose.  But even then, if clearance paperwork has a placement restriction on it (head 3, head 5, head 15, rear car, rear car with no more that 140 cars in front of it, etc etc etc) those have to be followed.

Locomotives arenít freight cars.  Before theyíre moved CSX makes sure it passes muster before it moves.  Be that as dead in consist, or dead in tow (there is a difference).

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2019, 02:03:35 PM »
We are on the same page...or is it track. LoL

An fwiw, indyhog is not the owner either; just forwarded the information. I am guessing whomever it is is not part of this thread?

No, owner in not on this discussion - I don't think he is a member here. 
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2019, 02:08:16 PM »
Might be able to with the caboose.  But even then, if clearance paperwork has a placement restriction on it (head 3, head 5, head 15, rear car, rear car with no more that 140 cars in front of it, etc etc etc) those have to be followed.

Locomotives aren’t freight cars.  Before they’re moved CSX makes sure it passes muster before it moves.  Be that as dead in consist, or dead in tow (there is a difference).

CSXT requires inspection of cabooses as well.  I've got one stuck in Albany NY area that CSXT threw up all over and refuses to move account out of date air valves and other misc issues - trying to get waiver but she may just fall to the scrappers torch - not worth spending the money to flat car out.

(Cool - post number 5000 for me)
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2019, 03:54:43 PM »
Equipment has to be in UMLER.  Not in UMLER, you can't even bill.  The computer system pulls the UMLER record in so that weights, lengths, special restrictions, etc., are loaded in into system for that particular car.  And the base logic that the car management system are based on says that anything with a mechanical designation starting with D or M (such as this caboose which is registered as car type of M930) are not revenue freight cars.

That seems like a real shortcoming of the system.  ANY piece of RR equipment can be a revenue move under certain circumstances. I understand that special instructions and restrictions would apply, but there is no LOGICAL reason that a locomotive OR a caboose can't be billed as a standard revenue piece of rolling stock as long as long as the information is in UMLER.  I think of the new and rebuilt locomotives that ship out of Muncie.  No reason to treat them as anything other than a boxcar with special handling instructions.

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2019, 03:59:02 PM »
That seems like a real shortcoming of the system.  ANY piece of RR equipment can be a revenue move under certain circumstances. I understand that special instructions and restrictions would apply, but there is no LOGICAL reason that a locomotive OR a caboose can't be billed as a standard revenue piece of rolling stock as long as long as the information is in UMLER.  I think of the new and rebuilt locomotives that ship out of Muncie.  No reason to treat them as anything other than a boxcar with special handling instructions.

I don't think this caboose location is in umler. At least not showing up like it is.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 04:09:21 PM by hytwr1 »

scraphauler

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 5165
  • Oberfeldwebel Hans Scraphauler
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2019, 04:23:14 PM »
Well, it WAS in UMLER - shows deleted.  EIN is 0000199798.. Built 3/1/75 SCL 1195 to SBD 21195 to CSXT 21195

As for the system, it is what it is.  It work fine for 99% of the traffic.  No one is going to invest in a major industry wide re-write to pickup odd ball stuff like privately owned cabooses.   
The opinions, views, and incoherent ramblings presented here do not necessarily represent the view point of any company I work for or own,  any logical thinking being, or even me.

CSX_CO

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 8088
  • Ok...lets get our stories straight......
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2019, 04:25:33 PM »
That seems like a real shortcoming of the system.  ANY piece of RR equipment can be a revenue move under certain circumstances. I understand that special instructions and restrictions would apply, but there is no LOGICAL reason that a locomotive OR a caboose can't be billed as a standard revenue piece of rolling stock as long as long as the information is in UMLER.  I think of the new and rebuilt locomotives that ship out of Muncie.  No reason to treat them as anything other than a boxcar with special handling instructions.

Except...they arenít ďregular freight carsĒ because they require special handling.  FYI TOFC, COFC, Double stacks, and even auto taxis are considered ďspecial handlingĒ because if height and equipment rules.

I also donít get your statement if ďstandard revenue piece of rolling stockĒ?  And ďno reason to treat them as anything but a box car?Ē  They do get billed like that, but, again, locomotives and special equipment moves have restrictions.  Either by rule, or equipment condition. 

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2019, 05:07:28 PM »
Well, it WAS in UMLER - shows deleted.  EIN is 0000199798.. Built 3/1/75 SCL 1195 to SBD 21195 to CSXT 21195

As for the system, it is what it is.  It work fine for 99% of the traffic.  No one is going to invest in a major industry wide re-write to pickup odd ball stuff like privately owned cabooses.

I hear ya. Kind of makes me wonder if they JUST deleted it.

Dustin

  • Global Moderator
  • Superintendent
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2019, 05:13:15 PM »
So without reading way more into car billing than I need to, is the caboose junk, pending, or what?

hytwr1

  • Chief Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Waylaid Caboose
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2019, 05:25:47 PM »
So without reading way more into car billing than I need to, is the caboose junk, pending, or what?

That would be a question from "P" whoever that is on to?