Author Topic: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement  (Read 15333 times)

ScottFlood

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HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« on: April 06, 2018, 04:31:08 PM »
The Indianapolis Business Journal is reporting that the Hoosier heritage Port Authority signed a 15-year agreement with Nickel Plate Heritage to restore the track and operate trains between Atlanta and Noblesville. Atlanta Pacific (Tom Hoback) will run the trains.

Story says track will be restored and equipment delivered this summer at an estimated cost of $1.2 million.

Link to story:
https://www.ibj.com/articles/68283-agreement-puts-tourism-train-excursions-on-track-in-hamilton-county?utm_source=ibj-daily&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=2018-04-06

trafficcritic

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 11:25:05 AM »
So what is going to happen south of Noblesville?  With the eviction of the ITM, is the plan still to turn it into a trail or is there any potential that NPH will be able to swing a Fair Train at some point in the future? What specifically is the safety/track issue that is keeping the Fair Train from running?

BourdonBoy

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 05:02:14 PM »
So what is going to happen south of Noblesville?
Nothing, until the STB makes a decision.  Keep an eye on Docket number FD_36137_0.

With the eviction of the ITM, is the plan still to turn it into a trail
That is still what the Owners want to do, but it's clearly not what the community wants.  Even the trail supporters have come out saying they'd like to see a solution that includes both, not the removal of the track.

Is there any potential that NPH will be able to swing a Fair Train at some point in the future?
No.  One reason they were "selected" as the Operator of the line is because their proposal specifically does NOT include any future operations south of Noblesville.

What specifically is the safety/track issue that is keeping the Fair Train from running?
Really, just catching-up on regular maintenance and better control of brush/branches at certain crossings.  The line was certainly operable as late as December 2015.  If that track was truly so bad, there's no way ITM would have operated that month, as they did.  So-called unsafe track was just the excuse used by the owners to boot ITM off the line.  Here is the complete report by an outside track inspection firm that HHPA hired to inspect the line:
http://www.savethenickelplate.org/uploads/9/7/2/5/97255818/hhpa_track_inspection_report.pdf


BourdonBoy

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2018, 10:31:54 AM »
I figured this is as good a thread as any to share this story from today on WXIN FOX-59.

http://fox59.com/2018/05/04/your-town-friday-meet-mr-muffins/

21st Century Limited

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2018, 01:10:15 PM »
"The tracks are being repaired right now" really? Where??

21st Century Limited

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 01:02:14 PM »
I'll answer my own question. They are currently unloading new ties in Cicero..Extensive tie replacement Arcadia to Atlanta.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 01:23:45 PM by 21st Century Limited »

Hemigray 42

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 03:13:13 PM »
Its funny that they will do this for a railcompany who has never moved a inch but ITM served countless miles and repairs. Be nice if switches were put back that HPPA let be removed.

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CSX_CO

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 05:01:49 PM »
Its funny that they will do this for a railcompany who has never moved a inch but ITM served countless miles and repairs. Be nice if switches were put back that HPPA let be removed.

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ITM quit holding up their end of the bargain.  They got evicted.

I think it speaks volumes that someone who hasn’t “moved an inch” is putting money in the line...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:00:01 PM by CSX_CO »

conductorcrede

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 07:24:14 PM »
There wasn’t any operating agreement after 2006. There wasn’t really any bargain to hold up in the first place. It’s really more like this: Imagine you live in a house that’s owned by someone else. The owner can kick you out whenever they feel like for any reason or no reason at all. Your sink is broken and the owner comes along and says to fix the sink or they’ll kick you out. But he also says he may just go ahead and kick you out anyway even if you do fix the sink. No reasonable person would fix the sink because they’re probably just going to get evicted regardless so why bother? Really there’s no incentive for any company, not just ITM, to put that much into maintaining those tracks anyway. Even though ITM still did some trackwork, I don’t see any reason they should’ve poured millions of dollars into something they didn’t own and could be evicted from at any time.

CSX_CO

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 08:07:59 PM »
There wasn’t any operating agreement after 2006. There wasn’t really any bargain to hold up in the first place. It’s really more like this: Imagine you live in a house that’s owned by someone else. The owner can kick you out whenever they feel like for any reason or no reason at all. Your sink is broken and the owner comes along and says to fix the sink or they’ll kick you out. But he also says he may just go ahead and kick you out anyway even if you do fix the sink. No reasonable person would fix the sink because they’re probably just going to get evicted regardless so why bother? Really there’s no incentive for any company, not just ITM, to put that much into maintaining those tracks anyway. Even though ITM still did some trackwork, I don’t see any reason they should’ve poured millions of dollars into something they didn’t own and could be evicted from at any time.

So they didn’t abide by the previous terms, did very little upkeep, then complained when they got evicted.

Apparently, made no attempts to protect themselves by negotiating a new agreement either,

Yet...HHPA is the bad guy?

CIND 2254

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2018, 09:24:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure ITM had been on the HHPA for a long time to get an agreement.

The HHPA being a political machine in Hamilton County certainly wouldn't have wanted to give them an agreement.
Modeling High Hood GP30s on the CERA based in Kokomo circa. 1996-1998.

CSX_CO

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2018, 09:27:37 PM »
I'm pretty sure ITM had been on the HHPA for a long time to get an agreement.

The HHPA being a political machine in Hamilton County certainly wouldn't have wanted to give them an agreement.

Given the internal disfunction since this began, I’d love to see proof of that.

conductorcrede

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2018, 09:40:52 PM »
So they didn’t abide by the previous terms, did very little upkeep, then complained when they got evicted.

Apparently, made no attempts to protect themselves by negotiating a new agreement either,


The HHPA refused to sign any agreements after 2006. I believe there was instance where a 1 year agreement was offered and they retracted it when ITM tried to negotiate for a longer term contract. The HHPA refused an agreement every other time ITM tried opening negotiations for an agreement  as well.

nhensley

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2018, 08:32:32 AM »
Will this new entity be able to secure a connection with NS in Tipton, or still landlocked?

Hemigray 42

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2018, 01:03:55 PM »
Did anyone see the article from Indy star about new transit depot in Fishers ? Seem odd if rails are being pulled.

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scraphauler

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »
Will this new entity be able to secure a connection with NS in Tipton, or still landlocked?

They will stay landlocked.  And why wouldn't they?  Other than pure railfan desire, what reason would they even have to establish as interchange?  Forget about any real or perceived miss-deeds by line owner and former operator - look at it strictly from Atlanta and Pacific's point of view - what would justify the upfront cost and ongoing expense of an interchange?   Even if costs $15,000 EACH piece to truck their trainset from NS tracks to their tracks, with only 7 pieces of equipment,  you are only looking at $105.000.  Even if you got a state grant, $105K wont cover the matching funds portion for NS to install a switch and A&P to build the connection.  After the initial movement of the inbound trainset,  I simply can't see them making enough future moves to ever cover the initial cost, let alone the annual expense of having an outside connection. 

CSX_CO

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2018, 04:26:15 PM »
Did anyone see the article from Indy star about new transit depot in Fishers ? Seem odd if rails are being pulled.

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Indy has a big transit depot down town for the city buses.  Transit doesn’t have to mean trains.

nhensley

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2018, 05:09:36 PM »
They will stay landlocked.  And why wouldn't they?  Other than pure railfan desire, what reason would they even have to establish as interchange?  Forget about any real or perceived miss-deeds by line owner and former operator - look at it strictly from Atlanta and Pacific's point of view - what would justify the upfront cost and ongoing expense of an interchange?   Even if costs $15,000 EACH piece to truck their trainset from NS tracks to their tracks, with only 7 pieces of equipment,  you are only looking at $105.000.  Even if you got a state grant, $105K wont cover the matching funds portion for NS to install a switch and A&P to build the connection.  After the initial movement of the inbound trainset,  I simply can't see them making enough future moves to ever cover the initial cost, let alone the annual expense of having an outside connection.

Wouldn't there be some additional upside in terms of getting ballast or MOW equipment shipped in more economically for ongoing track upkeep, as well as for the potential of offline excursions? 


CSX_CO

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2018, 05:16:17 PM »
Wouldn't there be some additional upside in terms of getting ballast or MOW equipment shipped in more economically for ongoing track upkeep, as well as for the potential of offline excursions?

Most single piece MOW equipment moves on low boys from point to point.  Ballast can be moved by dump truck just as easily as by train.

scraphauler

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Re: HHPA, NP Heritage sign agreement
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2018, 05:28:40 PM »
Ties more and more move by truck. CIND is wrapping up a nearly 30000 tie program and not a one of those came in by rail.  If it was cheaper to rail, CIND certainly would have.