Author Topic: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.  (Read 8779 times)

CIOR

  • The Second
  • Administrator
  • Jay Gould
  • *****
  • Posts: 14304
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2018, 06:41:27 PM »
I think it's more just from the connector to Junction.  Seems to be the one that always comes up.  I've not heard anything about the connector itself and that's likely why.

As to south, I believe there are road projects tied to it, but I've not been told any real details. I recall 20 years ago the talk of putting overpass in at The express way.  If imagine it's bigger picture in the double track plan. 

Wes Lewis might recall the rumors of the double track to Bluffton.

Webnauseum

  • Fireman
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2018, 05:39:28 PM »
I think it would be exciting to see  them dual track Hugo to Baer Field or even Bluffton, but something tells me they aren't going to spend any more than they  absolutely have to.

How bad are the delays you mention down at Kingsland?



CIOR

  • The Second
  • Administrator
  • Jay Gould
  • *****
  • Posts: 14304
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 05:48:39 PM »
Think about it from a running stand point.    You have to get trains into terminal to avoid another crew.  Winters road being the south point.

If you can get a train north of there it was always the best method.  We had a pull in pool and it was common to let trains dog there, but generally only if you had a relief crew already out there. 

The second track on the CFE is just a start to it from what's bee said

Webnauseum

  • Fireman
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 07:16:46 PM »
Tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the problem due to the NKP being single track west of Ft Wayne?   NCD Trains headed for Chicago  have to wait down south for east bound trains to clear the track west of Hill? (compounded when those east bound trains are headed south on the NCD)

Wouldn't the two-tracking from Sand to Junction, with a couple crossovers added.... allow the trains to park on the existing track while using the new track installed for CFE to pass? Would this help the Kingsland problem?

Note attached rough sketch. Existing track shown in black, new track in red. By assuring that CFE has no useful access to the NS thru line, they keep things fluid, always making sure there is room for a north bound train to stage before proceeding west of Hill

Just an unqualified opinion, from a sidewalk superintendent   ;)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 07:28:24 PM by Webnauseum »

indyspy

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 9908
  • Resident ATCS guru.
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2018, 12:10:10 AM »
Also possible. This is the "cheap" option. (remember when I said mine was the Cadillac plan)
The X factor is that there are NS trains using the C&FE to Mike would suffer from this arrangement. triple crown may be gone, but trains are sent down there a lot.
Or they will use the move down to Mike to go down to Snake or NE, just depends.
If in doubt, Notch it out!

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2018, 07:34:09 AM »
Granted this wouldn't be the most flexible option, but it looks a good bit better than what they have now.  I don't see how NS OR CF&E trains coming from or going to Mike would be any worse off than they are now, in fact, they should be a somewhat better.  As it currently is, NS often parks trains at Thomas Road for crew changes and gums up the whole area anyway. Now those trains could stay on the "south track" and keep the "north track" open for CF&E trains, SDI trains, etc.  No doubt a double crossover at both ends would be better, but of course that costs money.  I'm not even sure it makes any sense to extend a siding any further west than Thomas Road, because that road really can't be blocked for long.  I don't know if you could fit a decent sized train between Thomas and Hill if you extended a siding all the way there. With the trend towards longer trains, I wonder.

indyspy

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 9908
  • Resident ATCS guru.
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2018, 08:34:52 AM »
Well with the Cadillac plan you essentially gain double track from Hadley to Junction.

Both the Cadillac and Cheap plans are on the table from what I understand.
If in doubt, Notch it out!

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2018, 08:47:05 AM »
Well no doubt that if they extended the double track all the way to Hadley that would a best case scenario, but I wonder if they would be willing to spend that much money on something that doesn't seem THAT congested.  A few years ago yeah, but I wonder now.

CIOR

  • The Second
  • Administrator
  • Jay Gould
  • *****
  • Posts: 14304
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2018, 03:20:37 PM »
The bigger issue is the fact you can't let a Chicago side crew go to Kingsland and thus you burn a crew from Kingsland to Ft Wayne.
Put in the ability to run into terminal past winter's road and you get around it.

Distance is the biggest and time

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2018, 05:52:55 PM »
The bigger issue is the fact you can't let a Chicago side crew go to Kingsland and thus you burn a crew from Kingsland to Ft Wayne.

That's just one of those goofy railroad deals that makes me wonder how us truckers haven't managed to put you guys COMPLETELY out of business.  ;)  Imagine if we had drivers that had to stop at a certain point and could go no further.........  Just so you guys know, I'm only HALF joking...  :)


Webnauseum

  • Fireman
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2018, 06:07:30 PM »
Also possible. This is the "cheap" option. (remember when I said mine was the Cadillac plan)
The X factor is that there are NS trains using the C&FE to Mike would suffer from this arrangement.

For the record, I like your "Cadillac" much better than my "Foad", but  I just have this cynical side to me when it comes to expecting other parties to spend their money.  :'(

When the OP originally started this thread, my first thought was to double from Sand to Mike,  Thus additionally giving CFE trains the opportunity to pass even (if/when) NS ever starts up their occasional  detour program routing trains  off the congested NYC main from up North. Remember the refueling operation they had above Harrison st for some time. That has to throw a whammy on CFE fluidity.

But then yesterday as I was browsing maps of the NCD south from Hugo, looking for a place where dual track might be practical, I had an epiphany of sorts. I don't know exactly how many trains CFE runs per  day, but I don't think very many.

So it occurred to me that the purpose of this upgrade likely has  very little to do with getting CFE out of NS's way, and more to do with NS getting out of it's own way. Hence I think what they are doing is building a passing siding for themselves at the least  cost location. You can call the new line "CFE's main" as I'm sure that's what they will be limited to, but I don't think that is the fruit NS is reaching for. They want fluidity to get those trains  CIOR is talking about up to a practical location to recrew, instead of them dying on the clock waiting for opposing NS traffic to clear......and to do it at the "nice price"

Just my 2 cents. I'm a nobody, so not claiming any expertise

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2018, 06:24:39 PM »
Well, I agree that whatever ends up being done, it's NOT being done to help the CF&E.  If it does help them in any way, that will just be a coincidence.

Webnauseum

  • Fireman
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2018, 06:37:57 PM »
Perhaps I was unclear.  Forget about doubling from Junction to Mike, that was an additional thought process.

Specific to just doubling from Sand to Junction.....Initially the benefit I assumed NS sought was to get CFE trains out of their way.... "Build them their own main and forget about them"...

But I don't think CFE's volume level is significant enough to be that big of a problem to NS.   NS is doing this to get out of their own way....

That's what I meant, sorry for any confusion.

Webnauseum

  • Fireman
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2018, 06:48:17 PM »
Wonder what  impact this project (if built) might have of the "higher speed passenger rail" initiative?

rrnut282

  • Mogul
  • *****
  • Posts: 2020
  • I'm a Hoosier Railfan!
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2018, 10:59:46 PM »
As far as adding a passing siding between Hugo and Baer Field, is there even enough room to park a train anywhere in there?

Hugo-Engle road... Engle-Sand Point Rd.....Sand Point - Lower Huntington rd... Lower Huntington - McArthur dr.....McArthur - Airport Expressway... A E - Ferguson rd ?

Unless the trains they run through there are shorter than I think they are, there doesn't seem to be a lot of benefit in doubling that area.
The I469 bridge over the NCD gives you the only safe place to park a train for an hour or two.  However, train size means either Lafayette Ctr or Hamilton would be blocked. 
rrnut2-8-2
(Mike)

CIOR_CO

  • Dispatcher
  • *****
  • Posts: 274
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2018, 08:23:28 AM »
The longest stretch from Winters Road to Hugo between crossings is Airport Expressway-Lower Huntington Rd which is 5900ft.  It'll be interesting to see what they come up with as we've been getting hammered quite hard once reaching Kingsland going westbound.  Last week a crew took their train up to Junction, then shoved it back towards Mike.  Then they cabbed down to Kingsland for another train, took it to Scott Rd to clear the Hadley signal, then shoved it back on the double main.   All this to part the waters to get at least some traffic moving.

Those great 6-7 hour runs going through Bluffton many times quickly turn into 11 hour+ trips once the intermediate signal at 166.9 comes into view and you're lined in the hole at Kingsland to rot for trains still 30-40 miles away.
CIOR Conductor

Bob Durnell

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1907
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2018, 11:06:41 AM »
The longest stretch from Winters Road to Hugo between crossings is Airport Expressway-Lower Huntington Rd which is 5900ft.  It'll be interesting to see what they come up with as we've been getting hammered quite hard once reaching Kingsland going westbound.  Last week a crew took their train up to Junction, then shoved it back towards Mike.  Then they cabbed down to Kingsland for another train, took it to Scott Rd to clear the Hadley signal, then shoved it back on the double main.   All this to part the waters to get at least some traffic moving.

Those great 6-7 hour runs going through Bluffton many times quickly turn into 11 hour+ trips once the intermediate signal at 166.9 comes into view and you're lined in the hole at Kingsland to rot for trains still 30-40 miles away.

If it was your call, what fixes would you do to try to help this issue within reason?  Obviously you can't close or build bridges over EVERY road.

indyspy

  • Tycoon
  • ******
  • Posts: 9908
  • Resident ATCS guru.
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2018, 02:26:31 PM »
The advantage of a longer double track section is moving meets.

If you do Hugo south switch to a switch just north of the creek at Ossian you have 11 miles flat to make rolling meets.
Allowing trains to get into and out of the new double track from Junction westward where crew changes are done. Plus you don't hold up stuff going east on the Huntington.
If in doubt, Notch it out!

xgap

  • President
  • *****
  • Posts: 1888
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2018, 03:55:41 PM »
Kind of like down here, a connect the dots to create a chunk of double track. But this has been talked about and engineered for years. Capacities at some locations may be maxed without any kind of physical fix.  I wonder, why is that train tied down outside the terminal or crew change area? NS should at least study how well(better than today) things moved in the 1970s on poor track and with junk motive power.They could surely find a few examples of self induced shots in the foot. Asking up your way, what is the normal amount of time to change a crew, thru train stops then starts? Also are they properly performing the secure your train process when all those trains are left unattended? Thanks.

CIOR

  • The Second
  • Administrator
  • Jay Gould
  • *****
  • Posts: 14304
Re: Norfolk Southern capacity projects.
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2018, 07:23:08 PM »
Fort Wayne is pretty unique compared to say Cincy or Louisville.  You not only have multiple crew districts based there but you have crew districts that pass through it too.
So trains from Cincy to Detroit are different that Cincy to Chicago or Bellevue...  add in alt routing with Elkhart and well...

I recall years back the section from Ferguson Rd north was idea had 2 crossings to handle and one was said to just close with airport expressway getting a overpass.

The Hugo south variation is ok but would need all grading and creek I think. 
The Baer Field version has much of that grade work done.

Of course harken back to the mid 90s and there was talk of double track Hugo south to Bluffton at the river bridge.