Author Topic: N. Judson vs. CKIN?  (Read 36478 times)

Where?

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #180 on: July 21, 2016, 08:53:21 AM »
So this is all the experience you have? Working for CSX as a engineer and or conductor? So you were part of the last crew that went to Monterray or were ever. How is this relevant to the discussion? This is the problem with class one RR's; they think they are the only ones who know how to railroad. Do you have any other experince? How do you know I don't?

This is what is am talking about; speaking before you think about things and underestimating your "enemy". What does railroad experience have to do with the whole CKIN/HVRM situation. By the way there are two ways to meet trains at NJ. Just store the cars there. Why is there a perceived freight ban on the LC - NJ segment? THERE ISN"T. Isn't there a wye at Lacrosse? How about finding a way to meet trains there? I think I could. In fact I think I've done it already.

Thank You.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #181 on: July 21, 2016, 11:15:20 AM »
So this is all the experience you have? Working for CSX as a engineer and or conductor? So you were part of the last crew that went to Monterray or were ever. How is this relevant to the discussion? This is the problem with class one RR's; they think they are the only ones who know how to railroad. Do you have any other experince? How do you know I don't?

This is what is am talking about; speaking before you think about things and underestimating your "enemy". What does railroad experience have to do with the whole CKIN/HVRM situation. By the way there are two ways to meet trains at NJ. Just store the cars there. Why is there a perceived freight ban on the LC - NJ segment? THERE ISN"T. Isn't there a wye at Lacrosse? How about finding a way to meet trains there? I think I could. In fact I think I've done it already.

Thank You.

You laid the challenge.  You tell me how you do it.  There are no sidings on the line that are capable of holding a whole train, of any size, intact. You can't meet two grain trains on the line unless you have one east of LaCrosse.   Trust me, I had two grain trains out there at once.  One for Malden and one for Monterrey.  Had to leave one east of LaCrosse so we could take the other to Malden. At the time, no auxiliary tracks at LaCrosse remained.

Elevator at Malden uses the siding and main to load their trains.  So you can't drag one out there to meet if they're loading.  Elevator at Wellsboro involves breaking the train up to spot one there.  CKIN added a small spur to duck power into to help with shoving the train to interchange.

Railroading is the same no matter where you do it.  Just have to know where you are...

Re freight ban:

From earlier posting:

http://www.in.gov/ocra/files/Session_9_INDOT_IMS_Conference_10.20.11.pdf

Specifically:

"•Maintenance, operations, & staffing costs are not eligible for TE funding."

CKIN nor HVRM can use the track for any revenue generating activities unless it is for "transportation-related activities that are designed to strengthen the cultural, aesthetic, and environmental aspects of the Nation’s multi-modal transportation system." I guess using the money for ties was "ok" even though I would think that would have classified as mantainance costs. State saw it different.

Excursion train = ok
running revenue freight = not ok

There are a list of conditions for the use of the grant.  None of them allow for the use of the money in a "for profit" scenario. 

IOTD grants can't be used by private companies for their operations.  HVRM has said their grant for tie work was an IOTD grant.  CKIN can't use the track because the IOTD money was used on it...

midland sub

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #182 on: July 21, 2016, 01:53:02 PM »
CSX_CO we must have poked around the rafters enough to knock a wasp nest loose that someone at HVRM responds as a guest to let us know we're wrong and here's why.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I've enjoyed the back and forth of the back peddling coming for the HVRM supporters. Look we get purpose of the purchase, but don't expect there won't be some backlash of some of you trashing the CKIN when there's 2 more at equal fault. You're going to continue to catch grief from those of us that aren't just going to take the only evidence of support is the HVRM website.

I must admit I do enjoy seeing the ego side of the preservation side of the hobby rear its head. It does take a certain machismo to preserve and do whatever your "mission" might be. There's where the "playing with trains" comes from. When 95% of world could care less what you're doing I guess one might need a Napolenistic complex from a member or two to make sure you stay relevant when your hobby has some of the worst financial supporters there is. Hopefully the lesson was learned and the money spent on legal expenses will ensure the next operator knows better what they can and can't do provided in a legal and binding agreement


DRLOCO

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2016, 11:03:20 AM »
WEll, this just got even more interesting--I'm gonna go make some popcorn! ;D
And I wouldn't question CSX_CO's credentials on railroading--He's been at it almost as long as I have...He knows what's up.
Professional Locomotive Engineer and train nerd with most social skills.

Laguna Man

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2016, 11:30:48 AM »
Nothing to interesting in my mind here. Lease is up and North Judson can choose whom ever they like to handle the freight operations. My guess is the new operator will be given clear instructions, per the attorneys representing North Judson, as to what it can and can't do so this mess doesn't happen again anytime soon. I'm not picking sides, but if Indiana Boxcar wants to get paid, it will go quietly. I predict a quiet,  transition. The new operator will do the minimum, get paid and decide if it's worth renewing the lease when it's up for renewal again in a few years. And just maybe, the freight and tourism operators will get along.   

Chris Brown

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2016, 06:48:05 PM »
Well Powell Felix is now suing the Town of North Judson. He wants to own the railroad track. https://www.stb.gov/filings/all.nsf/ba7f93537688b8e5852573210004b318/3bbd458987952bc98525806c0064178e?OpenDocument

midland sub

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2016, 07:28:05 PM »
He makes some valid points there....

CIOR

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2016, 08:24:46 PM »
And uses a broad brush on most of the rest.
Sadly if you go back and read the initial steps of how this all played out its pretty well spelled out.

CSX_CO

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #189 on: November 17, 2016, 07:26:36 AM »
And uses a broad brush on most of the rest.
Sadly if you go back and read the initial steps of how this all played out its pretty well spelled out.

Sounds like sentiment I echoed here. HVRM being too involved in the process when it was merely a tenant on the line.

Could get legally messy if STB sees it even partially the CKIN way.  Perhaps cut the losses, and legal fees, and sell Wellsboro-LaCrosse-Malden to CKIN/the grain elevator, and leave N Judson to LaCrosse to the town and HVRM.  Work out agreement for HVRM to turn trains as needed at LaCrosse.

coal road

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #190 on: November 17, 2016, 03:45:32 PM »
And how well did Powell's ownership work out on any of the Indiana Hi-Rail lines??
History has a way of repeating itself, and Powell killed a lot of track-age in this state.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #191 on: November 17, 2016, 04:33:59 PM »
And how well did Powell's ownership work out on any of the Indiana Hi-Rail lines??
History has a way of repeating itself, and Powell killed a lot of track-age in this state.

The Nickel Plate east of Craigville to Delphos is the one example that gets me most upset. Miles and miles of potential locations for industry to locate ripped up so callously.

CSX_CO

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #192 on: November 17, 2016, 04:42:19 PM »
And how well did Powell's ownership work out on any of the Indiana Hi-Rail lines??
History has a way of repeating itself, and Powell killed a lot of track-age in this state.

If your using past ventures as a benchmark, bythat measure, how was Tom Hoback ever successful?  His employment history wasn't all that pretty, and the early days of the INRD were no cake walk either.

CIOR

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #193 on: November 17, 2016, 07:32:04 PM »
Sounds like sentiment I echoed here. HVRM being too involved in the process when it was merely a tenant on the line.

Could get legally messy if STB sees it even partially the CKIN way.  Perhaps cut the losses, and legal fees, and sell Wellsboro-LaCrosse-Malden to CKIN/the grain elevator, and leave N Judson to LaCrosse to the town and HVRM.  Work out agreement for HVRM to turn trains as needed at LaCrosse.

Problem with all of that is the broad brush again.  If you look back at the actual way things went then you see this as what it is...sour grapes .

In the end the corridor preservation was laid out for its entire purpose.  As I've said if you want to dig and find the info it's all readily available.  But continual second guessing and one siding arguments get no where.

The fact that line preservation has resulted in added freight is just a bonus when you look at the filings to start this way back when.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #194 on: November 17, 2016, 08:21:21 PM »
If your using past ventures as a benchmark, bythat measure, how was Tom Hoback ever successful?  His employment history wasn't all that pretty, and the early days of the INRD were no cake walk either.

What were Tom Hoback's big failures other than than working for the hopeless Erie Western and the even more hopeless Craig Burroughs?  As for the INRD, heck yeah it wasn't pretty, he bought a line that was one step up from being a dirt road, and one customer that controlled 95% of his carloads who didn't even want him to get the railroad.

IN1312

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2016, 02:51:25 PM »
What were Tom Hoback's big failures other than than working for the hopeless Erie Western and the even more hopeless Craig Burroughs?  As for the INRD, heck yeah it wasn't pretty, he bought a line that was one step up from being a dirt road, and one customer that controlled 95% of his carloads who didn't even want him to get the railroad.

I was under the impression he was turning the Erie Western around for the positive when it got pulled out from under him for scrap value, which was high at the time.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #196 on: November 19, 2016, 12:20:32 AM »
And how well did Powell's ownership work out on any of the Indiana Hi-Rail lines??
History has a way of repeating itself, and Powell killed a lot of track-age in this state.
To me the Powell and Hoback types helped to provide service to the dwindling number of customers of that time on lines the class 1s didn't want. Our changing world caused fewer number of  RR customers and lines. Not all the fault of the trying operators. Similar to present day, Floyd County losing their last railroad customer;  Pillsbury.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #197 on: November 19, 2016, 08:34:05 AM »
I appreciate what people like Powell Felix attempt to do to try to continue rail service where it might not exist otherwise, BUT, in MR Felix's case, he has a long history of disaster wherever he goes and a trail of unhappy people.  Anybody in the short line business is going to have a failure here and there, but his failure rate is darn near 100 percent.  The CKIN is about the ONLY operation he has ever been involved with that seems to be successful, (maybe because he he only the operator, not the owner) which is probably why he will resort to ANY means to hang onto it. 

CSX_CO

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #198 on: November 19, 2016, 09:54:03 AM »
I appreciate what people like Powell Felix attempt to do to try to continue rail service where it might not exist otherwise, BUT, in MR Felix's case, he has a long history of disaster wherever he goes and a trail of unhappy people.  Anybody in the short line business is going to have a failure here and there, but his failure rate is darn near 100 percent.  The CKIN is about the ONLY operation he has ever been involved with that seems to be successful, (maybe because he he only the operator, not the owner) which is probably why he will resort to ANY means to hang onto it.

Looks like he has some successful current holdings.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Boxcar_Corporation

If anything, he's guilty of trying to save too much railroad.

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Re: N. Judson vs. CKIN?
« Reply #199 on: November 19, 2016, 10:42:47 AM »
We can argue all day long his success and failures but.....
The Connersville line was doomed by the multitude of other line failures, it would have lasted until Ford closed otherwise.. Bluffton similar.
That said the bad choices seem to outweigh the rest.