New Honda Plant update!!!

[INprinter]

Well, I guess it is what it is. The only thing for sure is that whatever happens as far as traffic going west out of the Honda plant it will only happen if it makes economical sense for someone. There are no free rides. It's just that that track between the Honda plant and Shelbyville looks like it is in pretty bad shape. I saw some track down in South Carolina last year on a former NS mainline that hadn't been used since around '99 that looks better than this. I think there used to be some sort of "high speed" rail corridor program they used to squawk about in the local paper here in Shelbyville some years back. Was that some sort of federal program to upgrade ROW's? You'd think if there were any tax dollars laying around somewhere or some "entitlement" program for rails, ties and ballast someone would be figuring out how to spend it. I guess it really doesn't matter how the fast the train goes for the relatively short mileage between the Honda plant and Indy(I think that's where you might find some better trackage) if any traffic does go that way in the future as long as it gets there without any long delays. It will be a little interesting to see how this all develops over the next year or so.

[CIOR]

If you stop and think, it pays Honda far better to ship out to one destination and then distribute from there, that point being Cincinnati.  They will just move the traffic as a block to Cincinnati then deal it out allowing CSX to move their stuff west if they want out of Cincinnati.  NS can do the same.  Unless Honda wants to pay CIND to do it, which I doubt. 

Having spent my fair share of time on the railroad, I can say you can't figure them out and don't try in that respect. 

[CIND 2254]

I just went by the Honda plant site and sure enough about ten ortner aggregate cars loaded with ballast are sitting a ways east of Vandalia Rd.
                                    Christian

[scraphauler]

I just went by the Honda plant site and sure enough about ten ortner aggregate cars loaded with ballast are sitting a ways east of Vandalia Rd.
                                    Christian

THe 6 Cheviot saw are setting at Valley Jct.  The 12 at Vandalia either came up Thursday or are left overs from the 20+ car train from last Monday (left over's is my guess, as Thursday's local the retrieved the engine the crew used Tuesday or Wednesday to dump stone only had 10 empties, leaving 10+ still at Greensburg somewhere).   Did you notice the pile of panelized switches where the crews where working today (close to the end of the Great Wall of Honda)

As for mainline work, ties are marked as far west as MP 41.  Ballast is dumped to around MP 35 or so.  No ties dumped yet.  Pile of new ties at Valley continues to grow

[CIND 2254]

   Did you notice the pile of panelized switches where the crews where working today (close to the end of the Great Wall of Honda)

I did see some panel track setting next to where they are adding in switches so i would assume thats what they were, i was looking from the side and i couldn't tell.

[INprinter]

Here's a little tidbit I picked up today from Site Selection magazine, September 2006
NORTH AMERICAN REPORTS

Honda's Sure Thing
A new assembly plant in southeast Indiana is just
part of the solution for both a region and a company.


by ADAM BRUNS
adam.bruns bounce@conway.com

...A case in point is the CIND line, a short line railroad operated by RailAmerica that is serving the new Honda project.
   "The actual assembly plant will rest square in the middle of our mainline, so we will relocate our mainline to accommodate the plant and we will be the main carrier serving the plant out of Cincinnati and Indianapolis," says Tom Owen, senior vice president of business development and corporate strategy for RailAmerica, owner of 42 short lines in North America. Owen says there's quite a bit involved in serving a plant of this size, which will include a large amount of traffic interchange with Class 1 partners CSX and Norfolk Southern. Leading the punch list is an upgrade of parts of the main track that can't handle loads of 286,000 lbs., as well as bridge construction and some tie replacement. All totaled, Owen says the cost will be in the single- digit millions of dollars.
   Charles McSwain, vice president, CSX, calls the project "a great example of how Short Lines and Class 1 railroads are working together to provide solutions to industry." Owen seconds that notion, and says he's seen dozens of industrial development decisions on the company's 42 lines in the past two years, and 80 percent of them involve access to multiple Class 1 railroads. Helping RailAmerica is its affiliation with industrial developer Agracel, which specializes in "agurban" facility development along short lines. As for land, he says, "There is a lot of soybean and corn growing out there on either side of our track, so there is abundant land."

Any thoughts on this??? Nobody else seems to think CSX will participate in Honda traffic for various reasons. This is also the first time I have seen anything indicating work on bridges.

Inprinter

 
 

[Bob]

inprinter - I posted a reference to this article a while back - see Reply #109 on September 11, 2006, 11:55:53 PM.  I think it is on page 8.  scraphauler has reported work being done on the Whitewater River bridge near Valley Junction.  I would like to know where the track that "can't handle loads of 286klbs" is.  Is this because of a bridge?

scraphauler - I am assuming you would have mentioned it had you seen any, so I am assuming there is still no track working equipment along the main (other than what's behind the wall at Honda).  If you were at MP35, you were really out in the sticks. 

[scraphauler]

Bob - no, I have not seen any equipment yet other than 2 Atlas trucks, flat bed, and back hoe at Valley Jct.  As for the 286K issues, not sure where problem is/what the story is on that.  I know back when I worked for them, we handled 286K.  I also know that as a customer, I have moved a couple 286K loads over CIND as recenty as 2 years ago.  They may have put a restriction on since then, but I'm not sure where or why.  I would think getting the line to 286K has more to do with future growth than the anticipated Honda traffic.  A new Honda Civic has a curb weight just shy of 3000 lbs.  An empty ETTX Tri Level auto rack has a tare weight of around 110,000 lbs.  If you put 18 Civics on an ETTX rack, you have a total weight of around 164000 lbs, far less than the normal 263000 limit, let alone the 286000 limit. 

And yes, I was in the boonies - "Big Orange" could have gone further - I just didn't want to chance messing up the paint  .  They're past Bonnell but not to Weisburg. 

[INprinter]

Well, I'll try to memorize all 28 pages of this thread before I post again. Old news is only good for wrapping fish.

inprinter

[INprinter]

Thwarted once again. Somebody ditched 24 pages just so I can't memorize them.

Scraphauler, that was some good thinking on the weight of the autocarriers. Makes you wonder why then they would want to upgrade the track to something way beyond expectations. The only other thing I could think that would be heavier is if they started throwing some bigger engines on that line. I know we don't get but about 6 or 8 cars here in S'Ville each day and they only pull those in with one or two smaller engines, but what if the trains coming back and forth from Cincinnati to Greensburg (or Greensburg to Indy) got fairly long and required a larger road engine...say something like an SD70 or the like. Would a big road engine like that require an upgraded track and roadbed just for itself?

[indrr]

Thwarted once again. Somebody ditched 24 pages just so I can't memorize them.

They haven't been deleted.  In order to simplify the topic, it has been split. 

The first half is now in this thread: http://indianarailroads.org/board/index.php?topic=555.0 while the latter half is here.  The division between the two is about the time track was being relaid on the site.

[scraphauler]

Inprinter - it's a good idea to have a good tie structure under you for heavier power (so you don't roll a rail), but 286K rated track isn't needed for bigger power.  Locals like the one serving Shebyville generally are assigned 4 axle power due to some of the lighter weight and tighter radius industrial track they are required to work on more than what the mainline looks like.  I can't speak for what RailAmerica has in mind, but I can say that in the 10 years I work for RA/Railtex/Central Properties, we pursued various opportunities for traffic on the line, several of which would have required an upgraded track structure.  None of these opportunities generated enough revenue to justify the investment needed.  Do any of these opportunities still exist today?  I have no way of knowing for sure.  But if Honda and the State of Indiana are affording you the opportunity to upgrade, why not jump all over it so that you are in a position to pursue new business, be it something we looked at in the past or a new opportunity.  Honda solidifies the future of the NYC Chicago East.  I think it will just grow from there over next several years.

[CIND 2254]

The reason that the Shelbyville local never has 6-axle locomotives is due to two things. The biggest being that there is almost never any 6-axles that are assigned to hawthorne. Almost all of the trains that run from hawthorne are transfers or locals. The restriction on the shelbyville secondary is the Knauf siding. A large portion if its grade dates back to the 1880's or so. Although the sidng is not being used like it was before the Knauf expansion. It used to be that CSX would use the entire length of the siding and run all of the way into the plant. Now, Knaufs trackmobile picks up the cars when csx spots them on the end of the siding.
                                         Christian

[INprinter]

INDRR,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Is there someway to cross reference the split thread so that you would know it has been split. Maybe a note at the beginning of the new thread and the end of the old thread might give it some continuity. We all now know it's split but you have to get to page 4 of the new thread to see any reference to the old one(your note informing me of that). Newcomers could miss out on some good stuff otherwise.

Thanks,

Inprinter

[CIOR]

INPrinter,
   I should have posted a note saying that I split the thread apart like I did. 
I had been mulling it over for weeks and felt it would better serve its purpose to be split.

[INprinter]

INDRR,

Thanks.

Inprinter

Scraphauler and NS GE ES40DC,

It is all about making money in the end. I guess that railroad isn't there for our benefit just so we can make comments about it on the Bull Session. I appreciate the comments and it all certainly makes sense to me what you are saying. I do only see 4 wheel locos down here in S'Ville from CSX and they do leave those cars sitting at the end of the Knauf siding. I know that siding has been there since Noah floated around in the Ark. I used to own property along that siding. At one point in time, can't remember for sure, but sometime probably in the late '70s or early '80s or so, we got a notice of abandonment of the railroad, including that siding, and that the property would revert back to us. That never happened and I can't remember all the details, but I think Knauf jumped in there along with other rail customers and saved the line from abandonment. I'm sure you guys are more up on those particulars than I am. Since I have lived here in S'Ville(a long time now) I have seen Pennsylvania, NYC, PennCentral, Amtrak(damn few times and I don't think it ever stopped here), Conrail, CIND and CSX. It just looks like that section of track between Honda Plant and Shelbyville is heading for the great wasteland unless some other huge development happens along that stretch. Without that once/twice weekly CIND run to S'Ville the weeds are certainly taking over. Hard to see the track in places now. They better bring some weed wackers when they make that first run back here. Scraphauler, I'm out looking for a good book on how roadbeds are built. I've noticed that not all the rails are the same size either. When I was in England a few months ago I noticed that the railties over there are made out of concrete. They don't use spikes either to hold the rails to the ties. They got these these big wireformed "twisttie" shaped clips that hold the rails to the ties. I'll dig out my pictures and post one sometime.

Inprinter

 

[Cheviot_Hill]

Just an FYI. On my way into work this morning, I saw that MOW was dropping new ballast from about the old Amtrak station on River Rd. in Cincinnati, to near the old Riverside Yard. A distance of about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile. I guess their starting to head west from there on the CIND.

[INprinter]

A little off topic but this picture is of the ROW just East of Shelbyville where the CSX ends and the CIND begins looking eastbound where the track disappears into the weeds. Just wondering what "MACK" stands for?

Inprinter

[Cheviot_Hill]

I believe it stands for CP Mack or Control Point. It's a block designation.

[CIND 2254]

A little off topic but this picture is of the ROW just East of Shelbyville where the CSX ends and the CIND begins looking eastbound where the track disappears into the weeds. Just wondering what "MACK" stands for?

Inprinter

Thats interesting, on my CSX rule book/timetable, it is spelled as MAC not MACK.
                        Christian