Author Topic: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM  (Read 27573 times)

Bob Durnell

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 11:32:07 AM »
I actually inspected this line this fall from Van Buren to Marion, and despite not ever being abandoned, there are SEVERAL places where the rail is no longer intact, and most road crossings have been taken out.  I can't imagine what has kept this line from being formally abandoned, there is pretty much NOTHING of value left.  I believe that even the bulk of the rail on this line is approaching 100 years old.

conductorcrede

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 09:21:22 PM »
Itís amazing how it only takes 7 idiots to destroy several decades worth of Indiana history and cost taxpayers at least 14 million dollars. Or if you want to be fair about it, $2 million and just over 2 decades per person.

scheblo25

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 09:26:47 PM »
This whole situation has me so upset.    I wish they could "save the train" as it is currently, however now I think the best case is to just leave town 100%, take every last piece of property and get it somewhere safe.  Let's say this got really intense and ITM ran a train on the rails anyway, what's the worst that could happen?   The line really isn't even on the national rail network, it doesn't connect.    I mean what would the consequences be?   

They just need to get out of town in a hurry.     Take all the equipment and let the middle fingers fly as they leave town.   

DRLOCO

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2017, 09:38:25 PM »
Itís amazing how it only takes 7 idiots to destroy several decades worth of Indiana history and cost taxpayers at least 14 million dollars. Or if you want to be fair about it, $2 million and just over 2 decades per person.
Sigh.  This kind pf crap is why i hardly reply on message boards anymore. 
while i wont take sides on the matter, calling them idiots does no good and personal attacks like that violate rule number one here...be civil.

They did what they thought was best-those who remained in opposition to those 7 people also did what they thought was best.  In the end, we all like trains and the museum too.  When you get money and personalitites involved you are gonna have problems-much like a family. In this matter I have friends on both sides-none of them are idiots, nor are they bad people.

I'm not even gonna ask how you came up with the monitary amounts.  But city governments wase that much money in a month...ask Fishers how much that depot they built in 2000 cost when they tore it down in 2016..taxpayer money...haha. Like the port authority cares about that. 

This was a long time coming-the port authority was able to use this in-house strife as a convenient scapegoating to turn the tide of public opinion against the whole operation.  The cities want to be like Carmel. And to them a bike trail is much more lucrative and helps their real estate development values, whereas a railroad track used only sporadically is a detriment to their speculative real estate developments...urbanization has caught up with the museum.

To answer schelbo above, the FRA can and would fine the museum, and has the option to levee personal fines for those who operate without authority, to the tune of $10,000 per willful offense.  Now- go run your train without operating authority from the hhpa, and then hit a car...thats a lawyers wet dream.  And you'd have a hefty fine to pay after you get out of jail.  This isnt playtime-railroading is serious business.
Time to call the auctioneer, sell "as is, where is" most of the derelict equipment, and use that funding to move the salvagable equipment by truck over to the winimac southern line and start over. No sense fighting a battle to stay in a place you arent wanted.  Literally, its time go take your trains and leave! 
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Rick

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 10:10:56 PM »
I actually inspected this line this fall from Van Buren to Marion, and despite not ever being abandoned, there are SEVERAL places where the rail is no longer intact, and most road crossings have been taken out.  I can't imagine what has kept this line from being formally abandoned, there is pretty much NOTHING of value left.  I believe that even the bulk of the rail on this line is approaching 100 years old.
Pioneer rail still runs on 100 plus year old rail up here in Elkhart. 


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Bob Durnell

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 09:14:25 AM »
Someof the rails on the C&FE Decatur branch are 100 years old too.   The point is that they would have basically no resale value other scrap.  Nobody is going to re-lay 100 year old rail.

scheblo25

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »
Sigh.  This kind pf crap is why i hardly reply on message boards anymore. 
while i wont take sides on the matter, calling them idiots does no good and personal attacks like that violate rule number one here...be civil.

They did what they thought was best-those who remained in opposition to those 7 people also did what they thought was best.  In the end, we all like trains and the museum too.  When you get money and personalitites involved you are gonna have problems-much like a family. In this matter I have friends on both sides-none of them are idiots, nor are they bad people.

I'm not even gonna ask how you came up with the monitary amounts.  But city governments wase that much money in a month...ask Fishers how much that depot they built in 2000 cost when they tore it down in 2016..taxpayer money...haha. Like the port authority cares about that. 

This was a long time coming-the port authority was able to use this in-house strife as a convenient scapegoating to turn the tide of public opinion against the whole operation.  The cities want to be like Carmel. And to them a bike trail is much more lucrative and helps their real estate development values, whereas a railroad track used only sporadically is a detriment to their speculative real estate developments...urbanization has caught up with the museum.

To answer schelbo above, the FRA can and would fine the museum, and has the option to levee personal fines for those who operate without authority, to the tune of $10,000 per willful offense.  Now- go run your train without operating authority from the hhpa, and then hit a car...thats a lawyers wet dream.  And you'd have a hefty fine to pay after you get out of jail.  This isnt playtime-railroading is serious business.
Time to call the auctioneer, sell "as is, where is" most of the derelict equipment, and use that funding to move the salvagable equipment by truck over to the winimac southern line and start over. No sense fighting a battle to stay in a place you arent wanted.  Literally, its time go take your trains and leave!

It sure is more fun to think about it as playtime though.  A silent midnight train to get out all of the equipment in a last ditch effort to save the museum from ruin. Anything they can't get out they can burn as they leave.  They could make movies about it. 

indyspy

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 09:55:57 AM »
More then likely the HHPA would be accommodating if it was a one time escape move.

Or if it was a move to a former customer spur.
Do not forget that a good portion of the ITM collection currently sits on a friendly customer spur north of Noblesville.
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Ralph

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2017, 10:22:36 AM »
Do not forget that a good portion of the ITM collection currently sits on a friendly customer spur north of Noblesville.

That spur was expanded to hold equipment from the former lead to the power plant and was immediately crammed full of that equipment. I don't see anything else going there.

Trainman19

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2017, 10:41:55 AM »
Time to call the auctioneer, sell "as is, where is" most of the derelict equipment, and use that funding to move the salvagable equipment by truck over to the winimac southern line and start over. No sense fighting a battle to stay in a place you arent wanted.  Literally, its time go take your trains and leave!

I've been thinking along this line since the eviction was announced. Sell what you can, take what's left, and get out of Dodge.
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indyspy

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2017, 11:39:59 AM »
That spur was expanded to hold equipment from the former lead to the power plant and was immediately crammed full of that equipment. I don't see anything else going there.

Right but you can empty that spur of those items, scrap em if need be, in an effort to try and save the best items.

I would take space to park and save 587 over the ex WYE storage any day. Same goes with the operable equipment.

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indyspy

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2017, 11:54:56 AM »
I mean, this is going to end up in a scrapping bloodbath. But that if that space can be used to save the best of the best. You do it.

Now some items are privately owned. So it would be up to the owners to save them. We will see what Hulman does with the FEC 90. It is still for sale. That is NO WAY interchangeable. It is going out by truck. (wood frame)

These are what I consider to be the savable items.
NKP 587 (goes without saying)
The diesels (44toner can be trucked or flatcared out)
Nickel Plate Road    1
Louisville & Nashville    2728
The 14 BUDD coaches
The two BUDD head end cars 1601 silver mail, and 801 Silver Salon.
former AMTK 8091 Pullman all stainless diner.
663/HC13 The rarely used steam gen car.
Norfolk & Western    1306
Pennsylvania    9036
Pennsylvania    9026
Pennsylvania    6565
Pennsylvania    6523

The cabooses
Maybe a couple of the more modern freight cars, definitely would be lowest on the totem pole.

Singer Sewing Machine Co.    1  and Citizens Street Railway    69      can be easily trucked elsewhere
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crblue

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2017, 12:38:58 PM »
Who actually holds the title to NKP 587 now? I know that it's ownership has been the subject of some dispute in the past. My apologies if this is an oft-asked question.

Sharky1

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2017, 02:00:55 PM »
Who actually holds the title to NKP 587 now? I know that it's ownership has been the subject of some dispute in the past. My apologies if this is an oft-asked question.

ITM....
Indianapolis leased it to them (ITM) and after the lease ended it was sold to ITM.
There a fine line between a 'hobby' and a 'mental illness'.

central1751

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2017, 05:12:50 PM »
Sounds like its time for a plea to lowboy trucking companies to get all the operable stuff moved to live rail where it can be towed up to Logansport or trucked there directly.  If you going to spend the $$ for trucking and crane rental/donations.  Move it once, from Forest Park to where ever new home is.  Then throw up a barb wire topped chain link fence around everything whilst you reboot the museum and get ready for customers again.  I can see it doing well in Logansport, reboot the Iron Horse festival with an actual Iron Horse again.  But lots of hurdles and logistics to work out to get there!   

bth765

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2017, 12:22:21 AM »
When all of this fuss about the ITM started I predicted trying to keep the present location was a lost cause. I suggested accepting the inevitable and making plans to save the good stuff and getting rid of the junk. For this I was ridiculed and bad mouthed. Now the inevitable has happened and instead of several years there is a 90 day time period to salvage what can be salvaged. I'm NOT gloating but am very that this has turned out this way.

central1751

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2017, 07:50:22 PM »
When the urbanization started to really take over that part of the county is when ITM really needed to step up its game to a "class act" operation with imaculate equipment, shiny engines, not rust buckets like 83 became.  If the Napa Valley Wine train can coexhist with the upper class, nose in the air, call them what ever you want crowed, then the ITM could have.  But run like they have, for better or worse has turn out worse.  They are reaping what they have sowed for many many years.   The outdoor "back lot" of what the public sees as junk, should have had a pole barn built over it years ago.  out of sight out of mind. I just pray the good stuff gets saved somehow.  I bet nobody there has a clue how to get all the good stuff moved in time.  Would love to be a spider on the wall right now when they have board meetings trying to get thier arse out of this sling!

DRLOCO

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2017, 10:00:12 PM »
Comparing Napa Valley and ITM is a nice idea, and I *think* I see where you're going with that, and I agree with you that they needed to really put their best foot forward instead of showing a "quaint old train"...
Napa Valley is operated for profit by a company that specialized in hotel/restaurant/park management. Think of Napa Valley as a cruise ship on rails.  (it's damn near as expensive as one at any rate.).

Now as for ITM...I'd save even less.
Lets be realistic.Most of the equipment is historically significant, but unsalvageable.
I'm even going to go a step further and say get Ft Wayne to take on NKP 587 to restore it, then have it out there being operated by them and you can run it when you'd like, but let the damn thing FINALLY get back under steam.
IF the 99 (44-tonner) can be salvaged, and is usable, then truck that out.it's lightweight and inexpensive to move and inexpensive to operate as a yard switcher and cab-hop unit. Otherwise, I'd say bring the old Crane Switcher.  I think it's been re-engined with an EMD,
NKP426 would be worth saving.
The 200 can and should be saved, but I'd call UPRR and let them buy it back, since it's their original GP7.
Bring NKP Car 1, if the current owner can be convinced to let it go.Otherwise, let him figure out what to do with it.
Bring AS MANY of the ElCap coaches and parts as you can. Without cars, you can't haul people. without people, you can't make money.  Leasing cars works for short-term events like the polar express, but not viable as a long-term profit making situation.

Now, something to consider that there really isn't a good place to "start" a museum in kokomo right now, and that the "local miscreants" vandalized the polar train just in the few weeks it was here. 
Logansport probably has room in the old PRR yard, but will need some cleanup and tracks and building to be built to be able to store/repair/display equipment. That requires permits, and people and man, this is getting really expensive...you see the issue at hand.   Starting a museum from scratch is expensive. 

This is going to get ugly.  I expect all of you to show up at the auction (like I will) and we can all act like vultures circling the carcass.  Which sucks, because I have been involved in that museum for over 25 years, and it's going to be gone in less than 6 months.
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NS7112

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2017, 03:57:35 PM »
Now, something to consider that there really isn't a good place to "start" a museum in kokomo right now, and that the "local miscreants" vandalized the polar train just in the few weeks it was here. 

Did the train get vandalized in Kokomo as well?  The vandalism I was aware of happened on the way to Kokomo while in Chicago yards.

DRLOCO

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Re: Noblesville Parks Board looks to evict ITM
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2017, 05:31:25 PM »
OH- i didn't know it was en-route, I just heard that they had to clean up the cars before they even started operations. I didn't stop to consider the coaches would be in a place unsecured and sitting long enough to let that happen.
But then this is the railroad, and I should've known better.
:)
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